Antidepressants vis-a-vis Psychedelic-assisted Therapy

[Soul_of_Shu]

A discussion in the interest of understanding the paradigmatic underpinnings, and respective efficacy, of antidepressants vis-a-vis psychedelic-assisted psycho-spiritual therapy: comparisons, contrasts and combinations.

[SanteriSatama]

Thanks. Already the caleidos-cope-cat was worth the click.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Just to put this talk in context, it is more about medical education rather than metaphysical speculation. Interesting though how the psycho-active substance modalities developed out of the physicalist paradigm by and large are dangerously incompatible with the modalities developed out of a spiritually focused paradigm.

[SanteriSatama]

Just to put this talk in context, it is more about medical education rather than metaphysical speculation. Interesting though how the psycho-active substance modalities developed out of the physicalist paradigm by and large are dangerously incompatible with the modalities developed out of a spiritually focused paradigm.

Psychadelic treatment, especially in presence of an experienced guide, such as vegetalista shaman, is a practical aspect of Shadow integration, dealing with the traumatic suppressed and embodied stuff and releasing it in safe and supportive environment with as much comfort as possible. Anti-depressants and anti-psychotics treat the symptoms, not directrly the trauma. Just stabilizing a patient enough by suppressing the symptoms, so that the process can continue to healing, is often necessary. Vegetalismo is not just about DMT, it's comprehensive cooperation with various plants, mushrooms etc., and finding right combination for each specific case. It's a medical science. .

[Lou Gold]

I listened to the first 30 minutes and then could not sustain my interest. Somehow it reminded me of an interview with the psychology professor Richard Alpert when he returned from India as the New Age guru Ram Dass. He was asked, "So what do you think of psychoanalysis now?" He responded, "I think that if the Buddha was your shrink, it would be a magnificent experience." Since the carpenter builds the house and not the hammer, I ask where within the medical model will they find the "paradigm free" facilitators who can wisely and compassionately guide the psychedelic therapy process? But perhaps problem and solution might find a way forward. The problem is a dogmatic medical model. The solution is to change it. Perhaps the infusion of psychedelics into the medical model will trigger an alchemical institutional change. Miracles do happen. Know hope.

[SanteriSatama]

Since the carpenter builds the house and not the hammer, I ask where within the medical model will they find the "paradigm free" facilitators who can wisely and compassionately guide the process?

They?

Where does the quest 'paradigm free' come from? If something mentioned in the OP discussion I missed that part. I don't think, that for example, any of Western medicine, Yage vegetalismo and Daime are paradigm free. Or that they should be. Co-operation, sharing and mutual learning between various paradigms based on basic empirism and consensus building is a positive thing, but that process can't exclude critical discussion and valuation and disagreements between different tastes, or suppose any "neutral" facilitator.

I assume you are aware of the old discussion between "pure" ayahuasca with only MAO and DMT, and various yage mixtures. Daime is very puristic, Vegetalismo has both "pure" and mixtures as well as whole range of various medicines and diets. Paradigm of Vegetalismo has naturally more variety than Santo Daime, which by it's set and setting belongs to the general paradigm of religious cults and as such is not mainly oriented towards healing (though that can and does happen), but uses the medicine mainly to "charge batteries" of religious do-gooderism for a limited duration, after which they need to recharge again. The function of a healer is different, to get the job done and to make the healer unnecessary.

From from my one time experience in Daime session, it did the job as was my need and intention in that situation. The "battery charging" manifested in my case so that I when I came back home, I had to first shook off and then walk off the excess energy. Being a nicotine addict had it's own impact on the session, as I was not able to smoke as they wanted everybody just sit down in the sing-along, meaning that also many others felt my discomfort of nicotine withdrawal. Kinda funny in its way, but not ideal IMHO. So, in terms of matter of taste, Daime is not my thing. The varieties of Vegetalismo I communed with were more to my liking, but again, not enough so that I would have agreed to serve that way myself, so after a while there was no more need for the cup. All in all in my case the process as whole gave a rich variety of experiences of various aspects of the paradigm(s). One thing I didn't do was drink ayahuasca alone, but I've done the facilitator free tripping with shrooms. Which is the closest thing you can get to paradigm free.

[Lou Gold]

Since the carpenter builds the house and not the hammer, I ask where within the medical model will they find the "paradigm free" facilitators who can wisely and compassionately guide the process?

They?

Where does the quest 'paradigm free' come from? If something mentioned in the OP discussion I missed that part. I don't think, that for example, any of Western medicine, Yage vegetalismo and Daime are paradigm free. Or that they should be. Co-operation, sharing and mutual learning between various paradigms based on basic empirism and consensus building is a positive thing, but that process can't exclude critical discussion and valuation and disagreements between different tastes, or suppose any "neutral" facilitator.

I assume you are aware of the old discussion between "pure" ayahuasca with only MAO and DMT, and various yage mixtures. Daime is very puristic, Vegetalismo has both "pure" and mixtures as well as whole range of various medicines and diets. Paradigm of Vegetalismo has naturally more variety than Santo Daime, which by it's set and setting belongs to the general paradigm of religious cults and as such is not mainly oriented towards healing (though that can and does happen), but uses the medicine mainly to "charge batteries" of religious do-gooderism for a limited duration, after which they need to recharge again. The function of a healer is different, to get the job done and to make the healer unnecessary.

From from my one time experience in Daime session, it did the job as was my need and intention in that situation. The "battery charging" manifested in my case so that I when I came back home, I had to first shook off and then walk off the excess energy. Being a nicotine addict had it's own impact on the session, as I was not able to smoke as they wanted everybody just sit down in the sing-along, meaning that also many others felt my discomfort of nicotine withdrawal. Kinda funny in its way, but not ideal IMHO. So, in terms of matter of taste, Daime is not my thing. The varieties of Vegetalismo I communed with were more to my liking, but again, not enough so that I would have agreed to serve that way myself, so after a while there was no more need for the cup. All in all in my case the process as whole gave a rich variety of experiences of various aspects of the paradigm(s). One thing I didn't do was drink ayahuasca alone, but I've done the facilitator free tripping with shrooms. Which is the closest thing you can get to paradigm free.

There was lots of discussion of the symptom-based medical model (paradigm) in the video. By paradigm-free, I simply meant release from current medical dogma. I agree that no approach can or should be completely paradigm-free as liberation and/or healing are also paradigms. I disagree that doing psychedelics alone is paradigm-free, as there's always set and setting. You asked, "They?" My reference was to the ones running the new institutional therapeutic programs, which will be great if they find a lot of facilitators like Stan Grof. In regard to Santo Daime, there is a huge range and diversity in Brazil and I've experienced a wide range of syncretic approaches or misturas. Yes, some approaches can fit your description and many not. I would not say that Daime is specifically my thing either but rather that across a couple of decades it has given me a kind, safe and friendly ritual space to do inner work. It started with cleaning, went on to attaining firmness, then to devotion, on to charity and now mostly to just being Lou. I think it's been as a school or spiritual gym for me. I definitely don't think it's for all. My personal report is simply that I now feel more and more and more appreciative of many ways and feel a deep gratitude for finding one where I can do my work-and-play with others. As I said earlier, nowadays, this is my church:

[Soul_of_Shu]

... but I've done the facilitator free tripping with shrooms. Which is the closest thing you can get to paradigm free.

Close but no cigar? Probably closest to paradigm-free tripping would be at about 1 minute of age, before any adult hanging about opens their mouth and speaks. But then at that incipient stage one probably wouldn't need the shrooms either

[SanteriSatama]

As I said earlier, nowadays, this is my church:

A Forest-Finn relates, Forest is both our true home and temple. We have weird love-hate relation with another tribe that lives on flat plains kept open by agriculture.

[Lou Gold]

As I said earlier, nowadays, this is my church:

A Forest-Finn relates, Forest is both our true home and temple. We have weird love-hate relation with another tribe that lives on flat plains kept open by agriculture.

I wish only for mutual respect.