The Oneness of Our Food System

[Lou Gold]

I'm very happy for your cleaning efforts! Even though physically it has questionable results, it has much larger spiritual impact. Especially if we do these things as spiritual exercises. If we pick the bottle and think "pigs, rascals!" we're doing only half of the job. If with every bottle we imagine that we are symbolically also removing an impurity from our soul and then radiate waves of light and clarity in the atmosphere, we are really changing something in the etheric structures. Then next time when someone passes by, just before he drops the bottle his brain my capture a tiny particle of what we've radiated there and without knowing why, decides to carry it few meters more until the next bin. Even if that doesn't happen, we've still done something beneficial for ourselves, the physical and spiritual environment.

Well said, yes you do need to make the effort not to think “disgusting pigs”, and it’s actually surprisingly enjoyable and rewarding. I’ve seen a few others doing it since and it seems to be spreading, so yes these things we do (positive or negative) can radiate around. I’ve done enough of both to know which feels better in the long run.

These are excellent points raised in this thread. When we hold ourselves to higher standards, we are truly bringing about change within ourselves and those around us. Faith in our capacity as individuals is not other than faith in our reality as Divine beings. One of the largest sacrificial offerings we can make is of our own self-image as limited, powerless creatures, to dwell forever within the apparent safety of external orders and norms. Rather, we must we give up the relative "safety" of adhering to such dictates in order to venture out beyond them into the 'unexplored' territory of our own moral imagination. As long as we feel our sacrifices for the collective well-being are necessitated by anything external to us, by this or that person, institution, or deity, we remain unfree and ineffectual.

Faith in our capacity as individuals is not other than faith in our reality as Divine beings.

This seems as key to me and I believe that getting back in touch with the instinctual may be part of a faith process in which the Big Kahuna is instinctual. A loving God loving God unconditionally.

[Simon Adams]

These are excellent points raised in this thread. When we hold ourselves to higher standards, we are truly bringing about change within ourselves and those around us. Faith in our capacity as individuals is not other than faith in our reality as Divine beings. One of the largest sacrificial offerings we can make is of our own self-image as limited, powerless creatures, to dwell forever within the apparent safety of external orders and norms. Rather, we must we give up the relative "safety" of adhering to such dictates in order to venture out beyond them into the 'unexplored' territory of our own moral imagination. As long as we feel our sacrifices for the collective well-being are necessitated by anything external to us, by this or that person, institution, or deity, we remain unfree and ineffectual.

Yes it’s good to have your head in the clouds, but also good to have your feet on solid ground.

[Lou Gold]

we must we give up the relative "safety" of adhering to such dictates in order to venture out beyond them into the 'unexplored' territory of our own moral imagination. As long as we feel our sacrifices for the collective well-being are necessitated by anything external to us, by this or that person, institution, or deity, we remain unfree and ineffectual.

Yes it’s good to have your head in the clouds, but also good to have your feet on solid ground.

Nothing external? What about parents who say, "It's only a dream, kid. Now, go clean up your room" ???

Perhaps, there's a better way.

[AshvinP]

we must we give up the relative "safety" of adhering to such dictates in order to venture out beyond them into the 'unexplored' territory of our own moral imagination. As long as we feel our sacrifices for the collective well-being are necessitated by anything external to us, by this or that person, institution, or deity, we remain unfree and ineffectual.

Yes it’s good to have your head in the clouds, but also good to have your feet on solid ground.

Nothing external? What about parents who say, "It's only a dream, kid. Now, go clean up your room" ???

Perhaps, there's a better way.

Exactly, it is about evolving from the dependencies of infancy and childhood into adulthood; into independence from our spiritual parents so that we may re-discover for ourselves what they have been trying to instill within us all along.

[Lou Gold]

we must we give up the relative "safety" of adhering to such dictates in order to venture out beyond them into the 'unexplored' territory of our own moral imagination. As long as we feel our sacrifices for the collective well-being are necessitated by anything external to us, by this or that person, institution, or deity, we remain unfree and ineffectual.

Yes it’s good to have your head in the clouds, but also good to have your feet on solid ground.

Nothing external? What about parents who say, "It's only a dream, kid. Now, go clean up your room" ???

Perhaps, there's a better way.

Exactly, it is about evolving from the dependencies of infancy and childhood into adulthood; into independence from our spiritual parents so that we may re-discover for ourselves what they have been trying to instill within us all along.

Exactly the opposite of my intended message, which was that the child should be treated as magical from the outset rather than as an incomplete adult needing neurosis-transferring "domestication" from earthly parents saying, "It's only a dream kid. Now clean your room." As JC (the amazingly harmonizing musician who was raised well) says, "if I have a plan, it won't happen." Methinks, Ashvin, that you are defending a cultural form called "achievement" in which the child somehow "earns love." Is it true for you? Does it work naturally and harmoniously or are there inherent contradictions that create battles and adversarial conditions in one's life?

[AshvinP]

Nothing external? What about parents who say, "It's only a dream, kid. Now, go clean up your room" ???

Perhaps, there's a better way.

Exactly, it is about evolving from the dependencies of infancy and childhood into adulthood; into independence from our spiritual parents so that we may re-discover for ourselves what they have been trying to instill within us all along.

Exactly the opposite of my intended message, which was that the child should be treated as magical from the outset rather than as an incomplete adult needing neurosis-transferring "domestication" from earthly parents saying, "It's only a dream kid. Now clean your room." As JC (the amazingly harmonizing musician who was raised well) says, "if I have a plan, it won't happen." Methinks, Ashvin, that you are defending a cultural form called "achievement" in which the child somehow "earns love." Is it true for you? Does it work naturally and harmoniously or are there inherent contradictions that create battles and adversarial conditions in one's life?

I am just defending what is indisputably true about small children - they are magical but almost completely helpless and will develop all kinds of psycho-spiritual complexes if they do not break from their parents and become independent in the world. There will definitely be sacrifices involved and "adversarial conditions" during that process... that is called life and is unavoidable. Give JC 5-10 more years and he will be singing a different tune in that regard, especially if he decides to settle down with wife, kids, etc. He will be making plans to move forward in life just like everyone else.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Just to be clear, when JC says "If I make a plan, it won't happen" I understood that he's referring solely to planning out a song, as opposed to his creative process being far more improvisational, and not necessarily talking about not making plans regarding everyday life, or planning concerts, workshops, etc.

[Lou Gold]

The Devil is in the details and there are always details. India had an interesting evolution of its sacred cow vegetarianism that generated the unforeseen burden of having to feed the unwanted male cow babies. So they killed them to market to the meat-eating Muslims and thus became one of the top beef exporters in the world. Learning, whichever way it unfolds, is a mix of awareness and events co-arising interdependently and not a linear progressive hierarchical evolution.

I'm not sure what to make out of you example. If it is an example showing how vegetarianism can turn into a disaster then that's what I was also saying. I'm not pro-vegetarianism, I'm pro-awareness - ever expanding awareness. Then diet choice is the result of that awareness and not something forced from outside. I'm not very familiar with the details of these sacred cow stuff but what you describe looks like a perfect example of what happens when ancient traditions are dogmatically perpetuated while disregarding that times move forward and conditions change.

In the case of the Sacred Cow, the choice was forced by a Royal Decree. In the general, the choice is forced by the parents one was born to or the culture and ecology into which one was born or the karmic debt carried forth. Lives and conditions do change but each new "resolution" is born with an evil twin which a strong focus on ascent or achievement often denies, ignores or simply misses. The result is that cumulative effects of past unforeseen consequences get worse and worse until nature bats last in unmerciful ways injuring many innocent ones.

[Lou Gold]

Exactly, it is about evolving from the dependencies of infancy and childhood into adulthood; into independence from our spiritual parents so that we may re-discover for ourselves what they have been trying to instill within us all along.

Exactly the opposite of my intended message, which was that the child should be treated as magical from the outset rather than as an incomplete adult needing neurosis-transferring "domestication" from earthly parents saying, "It's only a dream kid. Now clean your room." As JC (the amazingly harmonizing musician who was raised well) says, "if I have a plan, it won't happen." Methinks, Ashvin, that you are defending a cultural form called "achievement" in which the child somehow "earns love." Is it true for you? Does it work naturally and harmoniously or are there inherent contradictions that create battles and adversarial conditions in one's life?

I am just defending what is indisputably true about small children - they are magical but almost completely helpless and will develop all kinds of psycho-spiritual complexes if they do not break from their parents and become independent in the world. There will definitely be sacrifices involved and "adversarial conditions" during that process... that is called life and is unavoidable. Give JC 5-10 more years and he will be singing a different tune in that regard, especially if he decides to settle down with wife, kids, etc. He will be making plans to move forward in life just like everyone else.

And yet his own mother avoided the dreary view you present. JC knows it and honors the debt. Musically, he was never disciplined to practice, just encouraged to play and when tired told, "Time To Rest Your Weary Head." Gradually and naturally, JC comes to realize that the Holy Mother is all around him and that he can receive Her blessing in stillness as well as in creativity. He naturally and instinctively groks, the other JC saying, "Tell them that I am movement and that I am rest."

[Lou Gold]

I am just defending what is indisputably true about small children - they are magical but almost completely helpless and will develop all kinds of psycho-spiritual complexes if they do not break from their parents and become independent in the world. There will definitely be sacrifices involved and "adversarial conditions" during that process... that is called life and is unavoidable. Give JC 5-10 more years and he will be singing a different tune in that regard, especially if he decides to settle down with wife, kids, etc. He will be making plans to move forward in life just like everyone else.

And yet his own mother avoided the dreary view you present. JC knows it and honors the debt. Musically, he was never disciplined to practice, just encouraged to play and when tired told, "Time To Rest Your Weary Head." Gradually and naturally, JC comes to realize that the Holy Mother is all around him and that he can receive Her blessing in stillness as well as in creativity. He naturally and instinctively groks, the other JC saying, "Tell them that I am movement and that I am rest."

BTW, in my early days here I asked Daime what was going on at the forum. The instant answer was, "No Mother!"

And, it seems notable that our musical JC was raised either in the absence or silence of his father who is never mentioned. There is a similarity in the Archetypal story.