Jordan Peterson “Beyond Order” book excerpt: Aeon of Horus, Osiris, Star Wars, Jung and Crowley

[SanteriSatama]

Well, suggest a word then! How would you call beings for which all your thoughts, feelings and will are transparent, who understand what you struggle with, what divides you, what your soul longs for and what is sabotaging it? Beings that see human life in the real interconnectedness of all life and not in intellectual concepts as we see it. Beings that see when humans are headed for a precipice long before we fall off the cliff, and try to warn us.

We call them simply spirit(s). There can be also various subclassifications, which can change with time and place. In our cosmology and ritual work Underworld and Aboveworld are equally important (it's not just a triad, also more layerings can be done in various mappings of spirit journeys). I can best characterize the difference as "thick" vibe vs "soothing" vibe. Or 'tension/pressure' and 'release/katharsis'. This suits well to balance the crazy introvert bipolars who chose to live in this horrible weather with very big swings between dark winter and summer bathing in light. When the Luonto ("nature") arises in the spring, it does so with mighty force. Reproductive energies are very thick and tense in the spring and early summer, coming of light is not at all soothing! The heart of the dark winter, on the other hand, can be very soothing time of relief and relaxation. Other weathers with different seasons can be very different. In Greece, for example, light feels very 'crisp', in search of a better word, and there's seldom silence anywhere.

Heart is in the middle, and a lovers heart can be also young and foolish, as should be. Centered in the heart, a very good terms are also 'Way of the Heart' and 'Warrior of the Heart', to guide our paths in the Middleworld.

Now you'll tell me that there's no right word because you don't believe that such beings exist or if they exist they are only some kind of blindly-instinctive Cosmic love-energy that glues everything together.

You are blessed. I feel great tenderness towards you insecurity, your lack of trust in the listener, when you speak more openly about the spirits in your heart. Thank you for your confiding. <3

How could I deny spirits? I am a spirit! And also a self, a nature.

And this is also the great difference between the East and the West. Here I don't mean West in the sense of science, business and technology. I speak of the West in the sense of something that is barely visible at this moment, so only those who have eyes to see it and ears to hear it can recognize it. It's a delicate sprout, something vulnerable and weak, which can nevertheless grow into something strong, wise and full of Love.

I'm from the North. There's also South, and all winds between. I've studied enough gardening to know that yes, there are many various tasks involved in nurturing a delicate sprout. To grow up, it needs also to grow strong roots that can penetrate the thick soil, and feed on the mineral world as well as light, as is the way of the ever going war between plant people and mineral people, the war that creates the fertile soil.

Our stories tell of cutting down the Big Oak, which grew so big that it shadowed all other life. Many tried and failed, and finally from the sea arose a small man clad in bronze, who grew into giant and fell the tree with three strikes. Various parts of the tree gave many blessings.

This I want to share with you now. In my last communion with the spirit of Ayahuasca, a new Tree of Life was carefully built inside my sentient body.

That's the great difference between East and West:
The Soul says - "I don't believe in what you say. I outright reject it. From my perspective you are a deluded mind on a power trip, too intoxicated with its 'higher' experiences to notice the fundamental peace of the undivided being"
The Spirit says - "Not only that I don't reject the fundamental peace of undivided being but I fully confirm it from my own experience. But I also testify that the nature of the Spirit can't be derived from whirlpools in the soul waters. We sin against the truth if we are to do this, we fall into Cosmic one-sidedness. It is the Spirit that swirls these vortices in the first place. The Spirit, the creative principle that reveals today within the thinking "I" is only now beginning to organize the soul waters so that the Macrocosmic "I" can discover its reflection in them. The Spirit needs the Cosmic Waters of the Soul to know of its existence and the Soul needs the Light of the Spirit if it's not to remain in deep Cosmic sleep."

So there it is. A point to ponder. A real test for those who claim to love balance of dualities.

Welcome to world, child. The "!" of the beginners mind.
(As in the story of the Camel, the Lion, the Child)

[Lou Gold]

Well, suggest a word then! How would you call beings for which all your thoughts, feelings and will are transparent, who understand what you struggle with, what divides you, what your soul longs for and what is sabotaging it? Beings that see human life in the real interconnectedness of all life and not in intellectual concepts as we see it. Beings that see when humans are headed for a precipice long before we fall off the cliff, and try to warn us.

We call them simply spirit(s). There can be also various subclassifications, which can change with time and place. In our cosmology and ritual work Underworld and Aboveworld are equally important (it's not just a triad, also more layerings can be done in various mappings of spirit journeys). I can best characterize the difference as "thick" vibe vs "soothing" vibe. Or 'tension/pressure' and 'release/katharsis'. This suits well to balance the crazy introvert bipolars who chose to live in this horrible weather with very big swings between dark winter and summer bathing in light. When the Luonto ("nature") arises in the spring, it does so with mighty force. Reproductive energies are very thick and tense in the spring and early summer, coming of light is not at all soothing! The heart of the dark winter, on the other hand, can be very soothing time of relief and relaxation. Other weathers with different seasons can be very different. In Greece, for example, light feels very 'crisp', in search of a better word, and there's seldom silence anywhere.

Heart is in the middle, and a lovers heart can be also young and foolish, as should be. Centered in the heart, a very good terms are also 'Way of the Heart' and 'Warrior of the Heart', to guide our paths in the Middleworld.

Now you'll tell me that there's no right word because you don't believe that such beings exist or if they exist they are only some kind of blindly-instinctive Cosmic love-energy that glues everything together.

You are blessed. I feel great tenderness towards you insecurity, your lack of trust in the listener, when you speak more openly about the spirits in your heart. Thank you for your confiding. <3

How could I deny spirits? I am a spirit! And also a self, a nature.

And this is also the great difference between the East and the West. Here I don't mean West in the sense of science, business and technology. I speak of the West in the sense of something that is barely visible at this moment, so only those who have eyes to see it and ears to hear it can recognize it. It's a delicate sprout, something vulnerable and weak, which can nevertheless grow into something strong, wise and full of Love.

I'm from the North. There's also South, and all winds between. I've studied enough gardening to know that yes, there are many various tasks involved in nurturing a delicate sprout. To grow up, it needs also to grow strong roots that can penetrate the thick soil, and feed on the mineral world as well as light, as is the way of the ever going war between plant people and mineral people, the war that creates the fertile soil.

Our stories tell of cutting down the Big Oak, which grew so big that it shadowed all other life. Many tried and failed, and finally from the sea arose a small man clad in bronze, who grew into giant and fell the tree with three strikes. Various parts of the tree gave many blessings.

This I want to share with you now. In my last communion with the spirit of Ayahuasca, a new Tree of Life was carefully built inside my sentient body.

That's the great difference between East and West:
The Soul says - "I don't believe in what you say. I outright reject it. From my perspective you are a deluded mind on a power trip, too intoxicated with its 'higher' experiences to notice the fundamental peace of the undivided being"
The Spirit says - "Not only that I don't reject the fundamental peace of undivided being but I fully confirm it from my own experience. But I also testify that the nature of the Spirit can't be derived from whirlpools in the soul waters. We sin against the truth if we are to do this, we fall into Cosmic one-sidedness. It is the Spirit that swirls these vortices in the first place. The Spirit, the creative principle that reveals today within the thinking "I" is only now beginning to organize the soul waters so that the Macrocosmic "I" can discover its reflection in them. The Spirit needs the Cosmic Waters of the Soul to know of its existence and the Soul needs the Light of the Spirit if it's not to remain in deep Cosmic sleep."

So there it is. A point to ponder. A real test for those who claim to love balance of dualities.

Welcome to world, child. The "!" of the beginners mind.
(As in the story of the Camel, the Lion, the Child)

Very nice Santeri. A nod from the hood to ya.

[Lou Gold]

It seems like you are stuck in the either/or-ness of duality. The constant is change, endless instinctual creativity in which a colonial choice overwhelms indigenous ways and everyone must seek a new balance. My Lakota friends say, "When the hoop is broken, it is broken for everyone." The few surviving bushmen can exist with nearly no tech. The modern urban dweller can't exist without a great deal of it. A lot of creativity manifested between the former and latter. Balance is a way of seeking to avoid making a difficult situation worse, as so-called modern problem-solving often does with good intentions.

You bet I am stuck! I'm having hard time following you.
"The constant is change, endless instinctual creativity in which a colonial choice overwhelms indigenous ways and everyone must seek a new balance."
So white man's colonialism was also instinctual creativity (i.e. choiceless-choice)? What about the seeking of balance that we should now do? Should this balancing be also instinctual? Or through conscious effort for understanding of the processes which should bring back balance instead of make things even worse? Or conscious effort is also kind of instinct?

There is no "should" in the system sense. It will instinctually generate cycles and also checks-and-balances. "Be still and know that I am God" will help one avoid or at least reduce the likelihood that one's "fixes" will create an even bigger problem (as they generally do).

[Cleric K]

Heart is in the middle, and a lovers heart can be also young and foolish, as should be. Centered in the heart, a very good terms are also 'Way of the Heart' and 'Warrior of the Heart', to guide our paths in the Middleworld.

I have nothing against this, as spoken many times. If that's the philosophy - anyone is free. But when it's insisted that is the path that will solve humanity's problems I'm obliged to point to the facts. Not in order to change anyone's mind but just so that it can be known that there's a wider perspective.

I speak of the same spirits that you mention. The difference is that, from what I see from you and Lou, it seems that the path of the Heart consists in flowing with whatever flows out of the heart, which is connected with the spirits. It's believed that if we simply let everything flow from there it will somehow be 'good'. That this is not so, is glaringly obvious even from the most superficial survey on the facts.

And here we come again to Lou and the People. I state the obvious, which is also not my idea but what all the great religions have always spoken about, that in the heart live both the noble and the egoistic, the good for the whole and the destructive. Is there need to 'prove' that? - "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."

When we give unrestrained reign of the heart we're becoming indiscriminate channels for whatever spirits can get hold of us. The actions of the spirits flow out of the heart and we say 'my desires!' And I'll repeat myself - if this is what one wants - OK - everyone is free. But if it's suggested that this is the path that leads to peace, harmony, love, abundance, etc., then something must be said to keep the balance.

As a matter of fact this is the path we have always been following. Eastern thought claims that the mind is to blame and by mind it's usually meant a symbol for the totality of the soul mish-mash that is felt to cause the troubles. Before we speak of 'path of the Heart' we must understand what the mind is and what the heart is. The mind didn't led the colonial expansion after some careful calculations and simulations that showed that this is the best approach. The mind has always been in service of the heart. The heart desires for power, for pleasure, for domination - all these are feelings, not thoughts. The mind only uses its creativity to satisfy the desires of the heart. And if this is not understood today it's partially because of the completely devastated cognitive abilities of modern man, thanks to spurious philosophical and spiritual teachings that deify and worship contradiction, irrationality, chaos, mindlessness, confusion, ignorance, inexplicability.

Let all be like children and enjoy the playground of the Earth. Really? And what have we been doing so far? Does the indiscriminate following of the heart (and the spirits working there) guarantee that two kids won't reach for the same toy at the same time? Does it guarantee that one of them will give way? Does it guarantee that kids won't begin to gather into groups as they find that the hearts of some kids desire things incompatible with others? If all this is thought thoroughly we'll see that we'll be tracing exactly the history of humanity on Earth.

And if there's one thing that our human experience has thought us so far it should be that if we are ever to find peace and harmony we'll have to understand, to penetrate with full awareness into the heart-world, so that we can discriminate the spiritual sources of the heart's desires and give way to these that lead to peace, harmony and love (if that's what we want, because there mages that enter the heart-world in order to create even more conflict). And if this sounds outrageous, biased, colonial, etc. - so be it. The simple fact is that over and over again no one here addresses this core issue. It all falls back immediately, like a broken record where the needle snaps back to its initial position. "Just follow your heart". OK. But if that's the philosophy then all resentment for colonials or any other group should evaporate - because they are doing exactly what you suggest - they blindly follow their heart's desires.

[Lou Gold]

Our stories tell of cutting down the Big Oak, which grew so big that it shadowed all other life. Many tried and failed, and finally from the sea arose a small man clad in bronze, who grew into giant and fell the tree with three strikes. Various parts of the tree gave many blessings.

This I want to share with you now. In my last communion with the spirit of Ayahuasca, a new Tree of Life was carefully built inside my sentient body.

This a rather common Ayahuasca theme: The old story has somehow become withered or too dominant or wiped out by changes or whatever. Then Ayahuasca replants the Soul Seed in the sentient body. The Vegetalista receives an Icaro. Damistas receive hymns. Mediums incorporate entities. I receive the Cross, Jesus and Mary. You receive the Tree of Life. This is why it's good to not focus on interpretations or models but to show the shine of what was directly received.

[AshvinP]

And here we come again to Lou and the People. I state the obvious, which is also not my idea but what all the great religions have always spoken about, that in the heart live both the noble and the egoistic, the good for the whole and the destructive. Is there need to 'prove' that? - "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."

When we give unrestrained reign of the heart we're becoming indiscriminate channels for whatever spirits can get hold of us. The actions of the spirits flow out of the heart and we say 'my desires!' And I'll repeat myself - if this is what one wants - OK - everyone is free. But if it's suggested that this is the path that leads to peace, harmony, love, abundance, etc., then something must be said to keep the balance.

Speaking of heart, I really enjoy this quote:

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956

[Lou Gold]

Heart is in the middle, and a lovers heart can be also young and foolish, as should be. Centered in the heart, a very good terms are also 'Way of the Heart' and 'Warrior of the Heart', to guide our paths in the Middleworld.

I have nothing against this, as spoken many times. If that's the philosophy - anyone is free. But when it's insisted that is the path that will solve humanity's problems I'm obliged to point to the facts. Not in order to change anyone's mind but just so that it can be known that there's a wider perspective.

I speak of the same spirits that you mention. The difference is that, from what I see from you and Lou, it seems that the path of the Heart consists in flowing with whatever flows out of the heart, which is connected with the spirits. It's believed that if we simply let everything flow from there it will somehow be 'good'. That this is not so, is glaringly obvious even from the most superficial survey on the facts.

And here we come again to Lou and the People. I state the obvious, which is also not my idea but what all the great religions have always spoken about, that in the heart live both the noble and the egoistic, the good for the whole and the destructive. Is there need to 'prove' that? - "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."

When we give unrestrained reign of the heart we're becoming indiscriminate channels for whatever spirits can get hold of us. The actions of the spirits flow out of the heart and we say 'my desires!' And I'll repeat myself - if this is what one wants - OK - everyone is free. But if it's suggested that this is the path that leads to peace, harmony, love, abundance, etc., then something must be said to keep the balance.

As a matter of fact this is the path we have always been following. Eastern thought claims that the mind is to blame and by mind it's usually meant a symbol for the totality of the soul mish-mash that is felt to cause the troubles. Before we speak of 'path of the Heart' we must understand what the mind is and what the heart is. The mind didn't led the colonial expansion after some careful calculations and simulations that showed that this is the best approach. The mind has always been in service of the heart. The heart desires for power, for pleasure, for domination - all these are feelings, not thoughts. The mind only uses its creativity to satisfy the desires of the heart. And if this is not understood today it's partially because of the completely devastated cognitive abilities of modern man, thanks to spurious philosophical and spiritual teachings that deify and worship contradiction, irrationality, chaos, mindlessness, confusion, ignorance, inexplicability.

Let all be like children and enjoy the playground of the Earth. Really? And what have we been doing so far? Does the indiscriminate following of the heart (and the spirits working there) guarantee that two kids won't reach for the same toy at the same time? Does it guarantee that one of them will give way? Does it guarantee that kids won't begin to gather into groups as they find that the hearts of some kids desire things incompatible with others? If all this is thought thoroughly we'll see that we'll be tracing exactly the history of humanity on Earth.

And if there's one thing that our human experience has thought us so far it should be that if we are ever to find peace and harmony we'll have to understand, to penetrate with full awareness into the heart-world, so that we can discriminate the spiritual sources of the heart's desires and give way to these that lead to peace, harmony and love (if that's what we want, because there mages that enter the heart-world in order to create even more conflict). And if this sounds outrageous, biased, colonial, etc. - so be it. The simple fact is that over and over again no one here addresses this core issue. It all falls back immediately, like a broken record where the needle snaps back to its initial position. "Just follow your heart". OK. But if that's the philosophy then all resentment for colonials or any other group should evaporate - because they are doing exactly what you suggest - they blindly follow their heart's desires.

And now you miss the meaning of your own observation:

And here we come again to Lou and the People. I state the obvious, which is also not my idea but what all the great religions have always spoken about, that in the heart live both the noble and the egoistic, the good for the whole and the destructive. Is there need to 'prove' that? - "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."

"... in the heart live both the noble and the egoistic" means that the drive for balance between the extremes exists instinctively within the heart. Insead of this obvious reality you separate into mind and heart, which is exactly the problem. Then you proceed into a lengthy discourse on contradictory thoughts/desires that would not be needed if you had stayed with reality. Bottom line is that either you believe that you are a true child of God naturally endowed with instincts leading to balanced health and wholeness for self and others, or you believe you are a sinner needing correction. The exception would be if one had been traumatically distorted, for example by scarcity consciousness. If so, the solution is not to say God gave choice and sinful options but to eliminate the trauma. GM would say the question is not "why the addiction but why the pain?" The great religions differ only in modelling balance as unifying mind and heart or in asserting that without obfuscation it is already here, which is not a matter of either/or truth but of perspective and path.

[Cleric K]

Good point. The desired 'outcomes' for the whole would need to be specified precisely. In relation to Lou's remark about 'abundance', the desired 'outcome' would be specified as 'equalization of material resources' or something like that. Right now it seems we can only imagine such an outcome in relation to centralized systems which forcibly redistribute a limited amount of resources (there are 'anarcho-communist' proposals and what not, but those don't seem feasible except at the smallest scales). So the outcome, at best, is that everyone ends up with a very small share of resources and is extremely resentful because they were forced into that situation.

But if the material resource limitations are, in reality, an artifice of our specific stage of evolution on Earth, then perhaps the mathematical models could be useful in pointing towards, or simply confirming, the ways in which such outcomes are achieved through agents with maximum 'degrees of freedom', i.e. very little to no compulsion? Basically it would look like a situation where every part of the network involved is autonomously and maximally contributing their talents to generating resources and also autonomously sharing those resources as needed throughout the network. I don't know... I am just speculating out loud at this point and perhaps none of it really makes sense.

I get where you're going but there's a fundamental problem The hardest thing of all is to model what exactly is the difference between voluntary and involuntary actions. And as you can imagine this is not a strictly mathematical problem but philosophical. Actually it can never be settled in any formal system of thought. Interestingly, if you pursue this path - trying to model the agent's behavior through some intellectual model - you'll more and more reach the situation of today's science where the term freedom simply doesn't make sense in a system governed by mathematical or other rules. By extension, if you model the voluntary agents within such a system, they'll also be governed by some rules - different from the rules of the compulsory agents but still rules. Maybe somewhat more fuzzy, more interconnected, maybe including some pseudo-random variations.

I think that the most that this simulation will show would be something like this: Here, the agents which are restricted in only this and that direction are not as effective as the agents that can evolve their behavior and find better patterns of behavior. But this doesn't come as a much of a surprise Then if you want to say that the less restricted agents represent spiritually free human beings you shoot yourself in the foot. You'll be opposed by the scientist "What do you mean free? The model shows that the 'free' behavior of the agents is simply a more versatile and complex algorithm but it's still a compulsory algorithm, not in principle different from that of the restricted agents." And this enters into the endless arguments what is consciousness for these models, what is experienced as voluntary, etc., etc.

My life experience so far shows that if someone resists to understand something about his own spiritual structure, when I describe with clear and simple examples, it's even less likely to do so with more complicated models. They only give the correspondent more hooks for the conversation to go astray.

[SanteriSatama]

I speak of the same spirits that you mention. The difference is that, from what I see from you and Lou, it seems that the path of the Heart consists in flowing with whatever flows out of the heart, which is connected with the spirits. It's believed that if we simply let everything flow from there it will somehow be 'good'. That this is not so, is glaringly obvious even from the most superficial survey on the facts.

Oh, no, not everything that flows in and out is good, in the relative sense. With attached love comes also all the hells of fear, hate, jealousy etc. The "old master" grade spirits can also have their quarrels and jealousies, putting each other down to elevate their own prestige. And what properties they manifest in various situations reflects your own path, what lessons your spirit is in the quest of learning. Also, empathy without skillful action can crush you, if all empathy barriers are removed and all the pain in the world is let in without ability to deal with that in skillful manner. Too bad "skillful action" doesn't seem to be anything definable, only learned in practice and trials of life.

When speaking of balance, it needs to be understood that we (I suppose Lou agrees) mean always a moving balance, very multidimensional balance, which can't be reduced to any static geometric metaphor. When mind tries grasp the balance into an image, there's always something beyond imagination, and heart will tell that time will tell. And in due time, time often tells in a glorious moment of everything 'clicking', which shows a long past in whole new light which changes history.

What you call 'Eastern thought' vs. 'West' is two strands of Indo-European/Indo-Aryan thought and experience having their mutual spiritual quarrel. Classical Greek and Sanskrit are linguistically very close, and thought thinks within confines of language, while also trying to break those confines and think further and beyond. Speaking only one language, thinking only in one language, is a major handicap for the process of thinking, but nothing is absolute.

The Escapist and the Activist are symbolically associated with "East" and "West" in the internal dialogue of Indo-European/Indo-Aryan thought-experience. Indeed, what does it benefit our compassion and empathy, if a single ego-mechanism is released for good in Moksha, and manages to escape the frustration of Karma, leaving others behind to rot in their suffering? And, what does it benefit to seed and grow new Universes, if you feel you have seen and felt enough of those? Both sides of the argument have their subjective point of view, as they continue their argument inside a mind. There are many other cultures and languages, which can share similar questions to various degrees, and have have their own questions and views. And much exchange and dialogue between languages and their spirits.

Before we speak of 'path of the Heart' we must understand what the mind is and what the heart is. The mind didn't led the colonial expansion after some careful calculations and simulations that showed that this is the best approach. The mind has always been in service of the heart. The heart desires for power, for pleasure, for domination - all these are feelings, not thoughts. The mind only uses its creativity to satisfy the desires of the heart. And if this is not understood today it's partially because of the completely devastated cognitive abilities of modern man, thanks to spurious philosophical and spiritual teachings that deify and worship contradiction, irrationality, chaos, mindlessness, confusion, ignorance, inexplicability.

Not just heart and mind, really. Also "guts" (In Finnish: sisu). Something to do with the strength that arises from from being rooted, grounded, attached. Of course such willpower can have also it's negative aspects, and heart is where sisu/guts and mind meet and mix. Mental processes play their role in balancing guts, heart and mind, but at ground, it's empirical process of life experience. Colonialism is by definition something up-rooted, eradicated and eradicating, more ethereal than earthy. It's detached from Luonto, the spiritual nature-connection, the source of sisu. Yet, there can be a greater purpose to the whole process, spiritual growth to "Global is the new Local", through all this hardship. A new sisu starting to grow and strengthen if and when a new global level is formed and starts to root.

Let all be like children and enjoy the playground of the Earth. Really? And what have we been doing so far? Does the indiscriminate following of the heart (and the spirits working there) guarantee that two kids won't reach for the same toy at the same time? Does it guarantee that one of them will give way? Does it guarantee that kids won't begin to gather into groups as they find that the hearts of some kids desire things incompatible with others? If all this is thought thoroughly we'll see that we'll be tracing exactly the history of humanity on Earth.

When someone welcomes a new child to the world, that does not mean that the spirit who welcomes is a child. When a gardener nurtures a seed and a sprout, that does not mean that the gardener is a plant. These are complementary relations, not identities.

No. I don't think there are any guarantees, in the sense of mechanistic determinism. What fun could there be with such, what challenges and learning?

And if there's one thing that our human experience has thought us so far it should be that if we are ever to find peace and harmony we'll have to understand, to penetrate with full awareness into the heart-world, so that we can discriminate the spiritual sources of the heart's desires and give way to these that lead to peace, harmony and love.

Aho.

There was a moment of great beauty and importance in Standing Rock, when settler veterans dressed in Blue Coats presented their sincere apology to an Elder representing the Red Path. The Elder responded with first uttering: "World peace! World peace! World peace!". This is our commitment, the direction of our sisu, through all our pains of spiritual growth.

If it is alright with your mind and heart, please accept the gift of sisu, these directions of where and how to look for it. There may come times for a great need for it.

[Cleric K]

"... in the heart live both the noble and the egoistic" means that the drive for balance between the extremes exists instinctively within the heart. Insead of this obvious reality you separate into mind and heart, which is exactly the problem. Then you proceed into a lengthy discourse on contradictory thoughts/desires that would not be needed if you had stayed with reality. Bottom line is that either you believe that you are a true child of God naturally endowed with instincts leading to balanced health and wholeness for self and others, or you believe you are a sinner needing correction. The exception would be if one had been traumatically distorted, for example by scarcity consciousness. If so, the solution is not to say God gave choice and sinful options but to eliminate the trauma. GM would say the question is not "why the addiction but why the pain?" The great religions differ only in modelling balance as unifying mind and heart or in asserting that without obfuscation it is already here, which is not a matter of either/or truth but of perspective and path.

OK, Lou. If you can't understand the simple fact that one can kill, rape and destroy by instinct, even if there's not a trace of thinking, I don't think there's anything more I can say.