Jordan Peterson “Beyond Order” book excerpt: Aeon of Horus, Osiris, Star Wars, Jung and Crowley

[AshvinP]

Yes to which one?

OK, so if I get what you are saying, the collective tribe spirit is a self-aware entity.

No, that is exactly what I'm not saying, especially the bolded word-traps.

.
Cleric, it may help to know SS is a big fan of Derrida's deconstruction approach, i.e. no words which imply a 'fixed' or 'concrete' metaphysical concept can ever be used for metaphysical discussions, and, in fact, I have already mispresented the entire endeavor by calling it an "approach", and therefore I, along with everything I write, and every question I may ask, am unworthy of serious metaphysical consideration. It's something like that, at least...

[SanteriSatama]

Thakshu. I like ToT's new hairstyle.

"To create new values - even the Lion is not able to do this: but to create for himself freedom for new creation, for this the lion's strength is sufficient."

The unbroken continuum of old and new values, and hence inherent incompleteness of values, very naturally creates and forgives our incomplete participating in cycles of life. Even against our most idealized projections of perfection, the third metamorphosis is the innocence of a child.

And a child it was, a little girl, who roared mightily with an angry looking toy lion in her hand, so that her lion imitations scared even herself a little. That's how that plastic toy lion ended on this table, now staring at me.

https://www.usrepresented.com/2019/10/25/nietzsche/

What might be our best wishes for a new Aion?

[Lou Gold]

Ashvin,

(Lou) Akathisia Bingo! This is why I instantly recognized him papably as a "wounded healer." No one should therefore less value the healing message, However, the shadow should be recognized as well and held, with compassion, in balance.

(Ashvin) This was a result of taking benzodiazepines for too long, as prescribed by his doctor, which he put out into the public even before this latest tragedy. He has always been forthright about his struggles with depression throughout his life as well.

You and Santeri have a knack for formulating criticisms with a lot of style and very little substance.

Why do you hear this as criticism? JF has been open about it, so has GM and they emerged with different "wounded healer" approaches. This is why a dialogue between them would be so interesting, specifically on the topic of compassion, which is where they seem to differ.

[Lou Gold]

Ever since Lou told me that cognitive contradictions don't bother him I'm no longer bothered either
I just tickled him today because I saw he was looking for the daily argue-dose

Tickle accepted. I never said "that cognitive contradictions don't bother" me. I said that I've learned and am learning to hold my contradictions more comfortably with faith and patience allowing natural resolutions to arise in their appropriate moment.

[AshvinP]

Ashvin,

(Lou) Akathisia Bingo! This is why I instantly recognized him papably as a "wounded healer." No one should therefore less value the healing message, However, the shadow should be recognized as well and held, with compassion, in balance.

(Ashvin) This was a result of taking benzodiazepines for too long, as prescribed by his doctor, which he put out into the public even before this latest tragedy. He has always been forthright about his struggles with depression throughout his life as well.

You and Santeri have a knack for formulating criticisms with a lot of style and very little substance.

Why do you hear this as criticism? JF has been open about it, so has GM and they emerged with different "wounded healer" approaches. This is why a dialogue between them would be so interesting, specifically on the topic of compassion, which is where they seem to differ.

If not that particular post, then plenty of others which are obviously critical. Again, I have no problem with people being critical of JP, BK or anyone else, only when the critics seem aghast that others are criticizing their criticisms, and therefore write their critics off as engaged in this or that psychological defense mechanism, or better yet pretend they were never being critical in the first instance.

I would also like to hear a dialogue between JP and GM. Specifically I would want to hear what GM makes of JP's argument that compassion by itself is never a good long-term strategy for dealing with anyone other than infants. At a minimum it must be balanced by conscientiousness, i.e. sharp value-priority distinctions and related negotiations between consenting adults.

[Lou Gold]

OK. I admit I have much yet to learn about your philosophy

Well that's the stumbling block, for as Lou has often reminded us, he's not doing philosophy, rather he's a story teller. Sometimes a story is either resonated with or not, requiring some suspension of disbelief, and has nothing to do with any kind of thought process that philosophy entails. And if you're not resonating with it, no amount of trying to transcribe it into a philosophy to be learned is going to make it so. There are certain very admired and gifted story tellers that I've tried to read and relate to, but no matter how often I try it seems I just can't seem to feel the world through their sensibilities, and one must just let it be. Not that this is necessarily the case in your interaction with Lou, just that it may well be.

I think you've nailed it Shu -- poetry or philosophy? I think the argument for philosophy is its rational appeal and the argument for poetry is its intuitive appeal. This is surely an oversimplification but I think you get my drift. There are other leanings: mind/body; thought/feeling; blah/blah which do not speak easily to each other, while M@L being instinctual pays it no mind. How's that for a CONTRADICTION?

[Cleric K]

Cleric, it may help to know SS is a big fan of Derrida's deconstruction approach, i.e. no words which imply a 'fixed' or 'concrete' metaphysical concept can ever be used for metaphysical discussions, and, in fact, I have already mispresented the entire endeavor by calling it an "approach", and therefore I, along with everything I write, and every question I may ask, am unworthy of serious metaphysical consideration. It's something like that, at least...

Ahaaa! Thanks a LOT, Ashvin! This saves me from any future triangulation attempts

Well, Santeri, if that's the case I don't see why you put energy in your Foundation. The whole talk about dishonest and confusing mathematics loses all meaning. The whole endeavor is self-defeating. After your work is complete I'll take it and turn every lemma around and give it back to you. I'll say that real numbers are fundamental, that lines are made of infinitesimal points, that circles have centers, that the empty set is real. Then I'll go on with my colonial agenda and if you say "No, no, that's not it". I'll say "Really?" and add a blink

[Soul_of_Shu]

How's that for a CONTRADICTION?

Rather than 'contradiction' I prefer embracing seeming paradox, as in the formlessness><form fusion of the Heart Sutra, or Lao Tzu's aphorism that "true words seem paradoxical" ... emptifullness comes to mind

[Lou Gold]

How's that for a CONTRADICTION?

Rather than 'contradiction' I prefer embracing seeming paradox, as in the formlessness><form fusion of the Heart Sutra, or Lao Tzu's aphorism that "true words seem paradoxical" ... emptifullness comes to mind

Exactly Shu and this is what Cleric seems to me to resist. It's not that I've never been troubled or stressed by contradiction but that I lovingly accept that joy and pain, form and emptiness, blah and blah are the same co-arising events. And, YES, it's appropriately called not the Mind Sutra but the Heart Sutra -- The Heart of Compassion or Unconditional Love.

[Lou Gold]

Ashvin,

(Lou) Akathisia Bingo! This is why I instantly recognized him papably as a "wounded healer." No one should therefore less value the healing message, However, the shadow should be recognized as well and held, with compassion, in balance.

(Ashvin) This was a result of taking benzodiazepines for too long, as prescribed by his doctor, which he put out into the public even before this latest tragedy. He has always been forthright about his struggles with depression throughout his life as well.

You and Santeri have a knack for formulating criticisms with a lot of style and very little substance.

Why do you hear this as criticism? JF has been open about it, so has GM and they emerged with different "wounded healer" approaches. This is why a dialogue between them would be so interesting, specifically on the topic of compassion, which is where they seem to differ.

If not that particular post, then plenty of others which are obviously critical. Again, I have no problem with people being critical of JP, BK or anyone else, only when the critics seem aghast that others are criticizing their criticisms, and therefore write their critics off as engaged in this or that psychological defense mechanism, or better yet pretend they were never being critical in the first instance.

I would also like to hear a dialogue between JP and GM. Specifically I would want to hear what GM makes of JP's argument that compassion by itself is never a good long-term strategy for dealing with anyone other than infants. At a minimum it must be balanced by conscientiousness, i.e. sharp value-priority distinctions and related negotiations between consenting adults.

Yes, Ashvin. This would certainly make it a most interesting dialogue.

Furthermore, if the New Physics is correct about no space-time, if there is only an Eternal Now and if Don Hofman's speculation pans out that there is a New Mathematics that will shift from Scarcity to Abundance Consciousness, this may be the Second Coming under which we can all enter Heaven as playful children and be freed from the development model requiring egos that go bump in the dark in order to bring fallen bodies to the Light. To think of it merely as substance-less poetry is a very rational way to block the possibility.