Anesthesia, EEG versus CBF

[Dave casarino]

Well I just went down a rabbit hole and proceeded to read a whole bunch of articles on anesthesia and looked up the original paper on the lipid study https://www.pnas.org/content/117/24/13757#sec-10 which turns out the tests were done on certain disembodied mice cells and living fruit flies and their brains which are both supposedly mechanically similar to human neural structures, so in a sense I was getting ahead of myself but at the same time this study is still relevant and could potentially be incorporated into an argument against the primacy of consciousness. I then proceeded to research into Orch OR and Hameroff which I had done prior to discovering Kastrup, here is an extremely detailed paper arguing for Orch OR which is a huge read https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 188#br0850 somewhat akin to Kastrup's own Idea of the world in that it is a big resource heavy argument. Hameroff and Penrose list this research here https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja311171u which indicates anesthesia targets microtubles, which is what their incredibly complex argument rests on as most of you probably know. All in all both examples still hint at structural formation sustaining consciousness and loss of formation minimizing or altogether ceasing consciousness entirely.

So is consciousness frozen or turned off during anesthesia? Or is it merely buried or minimized? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3870022/ here is one theoretical framework of unconsciousness that argues that cognitive neural networks go through a process of unbinding as in an integrated system looses structural integrity parsimonious to the lipid raft experiment as the lipid clusters are unbound from their original cluster. Hameroff had this to say about anesthesia and NDE's all the while confusing buddhism with advaita vedanta. I found one article that talks about sevoflurane's effects on BOLD CBF https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2716171/ but can't really apply it to any point made here. Structure changes, consciousness unaccounted for, thats the broadest generalisation, and it has something to do with mechanistic physical forms having their physicality affected.

[Silver0ne]

And again, the study in question doesn’t actually enhance or change the argument. It’s still just a repackaged “anesthesia turns off the soul” argument. You’re not the first person to think of this. All this study does is potentially explain the mechanisms of how it actually effects the brain, but we already knew it effected the brain. That’s never been in question. And it’s been mentioned before but it’s also still a single study and I think even the authors said more research needs to be done.

[Dave casarino]

I never said I was the first person to think of this. All I am saying as a person who has been under anesthesia four times, consciousness being switched off has implications that logically should affect idealism.

[Silver0ne]

And again, it could just as easily be memory formation that’s been impaired. Astra mentioned the physicalist who suggested just that so anesthesia can’t really prove it’s been turned off. Or if we go with a filter model then it just messes with the body so consciousness can’t manifest properly. If u could prove it’s turned off then yeah that could affect certain versions of idealism, but it’s not actually something that can be proven definitively. And again, if it does turn it off then NDEs under it shouldn’t be possible, but they are.

I’m not gonna try and convince u (considering you’ve brought this over from the old version of the forum this is clearly a big sticking point for you), and I’m not some hardcore debater. The only thing I’d suggest would be looking into the counter arguments since the anesthesia argument has been around for awhile, so you should be able to some discussion beyond this forum (it’d probably be more dualistic focused though)

[Dave casarino]

Well thats all fair enough, I am actually agnostic and not a staunch physicalist on this one, it's just that as you said, it sticks..... and so after even more research I make a different but similar case: harking back to the video with Hameroff where he explains how deceased people's brains suddenly start blasting gamma waves after death this got me thinking about the relationship between anesthesia and gamma waves and what produces gamma waves in general.

In this paper https://journals.lww.com/anesthesia-ana ... ry.23.aspx it is discovered that propofol abolishes the 40 hz gamma wave but over time the wave builds up again, usually coinciding with wakefulness but not definitely. In this experiment https://www.pnas.org/content/112/11/3535 stimulation of cells in the basal forebrain activate gamma wave oscillations and in this experiment https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21280045/ rats that were given lesions to the central forebrain were essentially vegetative and had an EEG reading of 1 hz. How do these studies all add up? Especially with the increased gamma oscillations from psilocybin and possible NDE's?

[Jim Cross]

Dave,

For many years it has been understood that slow waves are associated with deep sleep and faster waves are associated with wakefulness. Dreaming sleep actually also involves faster spikes in certain brain regions. Deep sleep is similar to the effects of anesthesia. So nothing is surprising that wakefulness and consciousness corresponds to faster, coordinated oscillations of neurons. Similar patterns have been detected across many species including even insects.

Psychedelics do not completely shut down the faster oscillations but instead disrupt their coordination, hence it has an ability to break established neuronal patterns which may be part of its ability to help with PTSD, improve creativity, and create transformative opportunities for personal growth.

[5MeO-DMT_Philosopher]

Dave,

For many years it has been understood that slow waves are associated with deep sleep and faster waves are associated with wakefulness. Dreaming sleep actually also involves faster spikes in certain brain regions. Deep sleep is similar to the effects of anesthesia.

Psychedelics do not completely shut down the faster oscillations

Anesthesia is much closer to coma than deep sleep

But what if they not only not completely shut down the faster oscillations (gamma) but very significantly increases them? We need more studies but it seems like it in 5-MeO-DMT and psilocybin case.

On the old forum, Bernardo said gamma waves are hard to measure cause they correspond to muscle movement a lot

[Astra052]

Dave,

For many years it has been understood that slow waves are associated with deep sleep and faster waves are associated with wakefulness. Dreaming sleep actually also involves faster spikes in certain brain regions. Deep sleep is similar to the effects of anesthesia. So nothing is surprising that wakefulness and consciousness corresponds to faster, coordinated oscillations of neurons. Similar patterns have been detected across many species including even insects.

Psychedelics do not completely shut down the faster oscillations but instead disrupt their coordination, hence it has an ability to break established neuronal patterns which may be part of its ability to help with PTSD, improve creativity, and create transformative opportunities for personal growth.

Honestly I don't find the "psychedelics only do stuff cause of physical changes that occur in the brain" stuff. A lot the benefit from them is seriously just the experience itself and things you see/hear. I don't think you could really have a trip without any corresponding meaningful images/sounds. If this were possible then I don't think the "bad trip" phenomena would be a thing. A lot of it really is just psychological/metnal and not reducible to "oh well its just your brain rewiring".