Getting Real

[Lou Gold]

Shaibei,

Why want to be a winner?

An anthropologist invited children from an African tribe to play a game. He placed a bowl filled with sweet fruit by a tree. He addressed the children saying: “The one who gets to the tree first will be rewarded with all of the sweet fruits.” When he signaled the children to start the race, they locked their hands together and ran toward the tree. They sat down at the tree together and shared the fruit. The astonished anthropologist asked the children why they had run together when each one of them had the opportunity to have all of the fruit for themselves. The children replied “Ubuntu ”. Is it possible for one to be happy when everyone else is sad? Ubuntu means: “I exist because we exist.”

Why does what you wrote here necessarily contradict what I wrote? Yes, I believe a person can lose a great deal in this world. And that the original spiritual nature inherent in him is to avoid such a loss. And as I mentioned, a true winner is sometimes one that all he can do is doing good solely because it is good and not because he has the power to do it. And that in itself is very sublime victory. I do not come with an "all or nothing" approach. On the contrary, such an approach could result in a significant loss

Oh, I agree with you at the sublime level, for sure! The problem is that the cultural level is rather not sublime. An exception would be the rare culture that celebrates the personal as integrated with the general as would be the case if the people are praying for the individual achiever and the achiever understands the achievement as dependent on their prayers. More generally "winning" just seems as a rather not sublime word that, sadly, creates lots of "losers." An important part of the Ubuntu story is that the anthropologist was surprised. This surprise is an expression of "achievement culture."

[SanteriSatama]

More generally "winning" just seems as a rather not sublime word that, sadly, creates lots of "losers."

Game theory has so far focused more on win-lose games, but better comprehension of such games, and how easily win-lose games can become lose-lose games, is already a win-win game.

[Lou Gold]

More generally "winning" just seems as a rather not sublime word that, sadly, creates lots of "losers."

Game theory has so far focused more on win-lose games, but better comprehension of such games, and how easily win-lose games can become lose-lose games, is already a win-win game.

Yes, indeed. And, just as with spiritual sublimity, game theory math, is not what is culturally privileged generally. Thus we learn the hard way of error. One might even say, "there's a season for sublimity under the sun and the sun sets."

[Shaibei]

Shaibei,

Why want to be a winner?

An anthropologist invited children from an African tribe to play a game. He placed a bowl filled with sweet fruit by a tree. He addressed the children saying: “The one who gets to the tree first will be rewarded with all of the sweet fruits.” When he signaled the children to start the race, they locked their hands together and ran toward the tree. They sat down at the tree together and shared the fruit. The astonished anthropologist asked the children why they had run together when each one of them had the opportunity to have all of the fruit for themselves. The children replied “Ubuntu ”. Is it possible for one to be happy when everyone else is sad? Ubuntu means: “I exist because we exist.”

Why does what you wrote here necessarily contradict what I wrote? Yes, I believe a person can lose a great deal in this world. And that the original spiritual nature inherent in him is to avoid such a loss. And as I mentioned, a true winner is sometimes one that all he can do is doing good solely because it is good and not because he has the power to do it. And that in itself is very sublime victory. I do not come with an "all or nothing" approach. On the contrary, such an approach could result in a significant loss

Oh, I agree with you at the sublime level, for sure! The problem is that the cultural level is rather not sublime. An exception would be the rare culture that celebrates the personal as integrated with the general as would be the case if the people are praying for the individual achiever and the achiever understands the achievement as dependent on their prayers. More generally "winning" just seems as a rather not sublime word that, sadly, creates lots of "losers." An important part of the Ubuntu story is that the anthropologist was surprised. This surprise is an expression of "achievement culture."

Losers emerge when a person is engrossed in comparisons and finds it difficult to use his good eye when he sees the success of others.
The way I see things, life is made up of two poles. On the one hand, joy in what we have, this joy is often accompanied by a kind of innocence. The other pole is to look at what else can be achieved. Our job is to discern when to hold at each of these poles. When we observe various cultures we can witness examples of a tendency towards one of these poles, with the advantages and disadvantages it gives

[Lou Gold]

Why does what you wrote here necessarily contradict what I wrote? Yes, I believe a person can lose a great deal in this world. And that the original spiritual nature inherent in him is to avoid such a loss. And as I mentioned, a true winner is sometimes one that all he can do is doing good solely because it is good and not because he has the power to do it. And that in itself is very sublime victory. I do not come with an "all or nothing" approach. On the contrary, such an approach could result in a significant loss

Oh, I agree with you at the sublime level, for sure! The problem is that the cultural level is rather not sublime. An exception would be the rare culture that celebrates the personal as integrated with the general as would be the case if the people are praying for the individual achiever and the achiever understands the achievement as dependent on their prayers. More generally "winning" just seems as a rather not sublime word that, sadly, creates lots of "losers." An important part of the Ubuntu story is that the anthropologist was surprised. This surprise is an expression of "achievement culture."

Losers emerge when a person is engrossed in comparisons and finds it difficult to use his good eye when he sees the success of others.
The way I see things, life is made up of two poles. On the one hand, joy in what we have, this joy is often accompanied by a kind of innocence. The other pole is to look at what else can be achieved. Our job is to discern when to hold at each of these poles. When we observe various cultures we can witness examples of a tendency towards one of these poles, with the advantages and disadvantages it gives

I'm a huge fan of both/and but it drives ontologists and fundamentalists bonkers, which may also be a necessary part of the process.

Arnold Mindell presents a view that perhaps even a kid might understand

[Martin_]

Maybe I'm in minority here, but i'd love myself a good game of soccer, chess, or Magic the Gathering.
And if you don't play to win, there's no point.

Granted, it's not the winnig that's important for a good game, it's the trying to win which matters.

[Lou Gold]

And if you don't play to win, there's no point.

For some, the highest ambition is to be at the top of their game, win or lose.