Getting Real

[Shaibei]

Which is true for the perspective that we are sinners who have missed the mark, a widespread pov. One might even argue that it is the God-given Null Hypothesis underpinning scientific inquiry.

I do not see how this has to do with being "sinners."

My understanding is that in old Hebrew 'sin' means to 'miss the target' -- to err. Trial-and-Error is essential to investigation. Most experiments in evolution (mutations) and in science simply delete errors or stuff that doesn't 'work'. The reason elders are considered wiser than kids is more mistakes.

With this explanation I can identify more. Because the jargon "we are sinners" is unfamiliar to me. We are human beings and by nature make mistakes and from mistakes we learn to correct. So "sin" is a part of life and so is its correction. On the Bible the Nazirite should offer a sacrifice for his sin. But what was his sin? he denied life...

[Lou Gold]

I do not see how this has to do with being "sinners."

My understanding is that in old Hebrew 'sin' means to 'miss the target' -- to err. Trial-and-Error is essential to investigation. Most experiments in evolution (mutations) and in science simply delete errors or stuff that doesn't 'work'. The reason elders are considered wiser than kids is more mistakes.

With this explanation I can identify more. Because the jargon "we are sinners" is unfamiliar to me. We are human beings and by nature make mistakes and from mistakes we learn to correct. So "sin" is a part of life and so is its correction. On the Bible the Nazirite should offer a sacrifice for his sin. But what was his sin? he denied life...

And, anything born into manifestation comes the shadow/evil twin, etc. One must honor/respect/appreciate life and death. I feel the old Jewish tradition in my ancestral lineage and in certain 'seeds' planted in me in a secular way by my childhood culture. I intuit that participation in the duality breeds values. Justice was a big one for me and drove my activist ways.

[AshvinP]

'Independent' is problematic concept, as in my view it's always a matter of degree, not absolute either-or. There can be various degrees of ontological, ethical, spiritual etc. independence, with complex relations and dependencies between various areas. I like the term 'spiritual anarchy' better, as ethical refusal of becoming a ruler. The story of temptation of Christ, and his refusal to rule over world, is an exemplary story of what spiritual anarchy means. Naturally, the ethical choice of spiritual anarchy presupposes spiritual freedom, otherwise the choice can't be genuine.

It is a matter of degree and the choice is whether to become more or less independent, knowing to the fullest extent possible what the consequences of either options are. The temptation of Christ can be viewed as a test of exactly how much we rule over our own will, feelings, and thoughts. As Jung famously remarked, "people don't have ideas, ideas have people". Are we going to remain their puppets in relative safety or are we going to diligently bring them under our volitional control? The former is giving in to the devil's temptation while the latter is putting our faith in God and shouldering the burden of our cross to bear.

[SanteriSatama]

It is a matter of degree and the choice is whether to become more or less independent, knowing to the fullest extent possible what the consequences of either options are. The temptation of Christ can be viewed as a test of exactly how much we rule over our own will, feelings, and thoughts. As Jung famously remarked, "people don't have ideas, ideas have people". Are we going to remain their puppets in relative safety or are we going to diligently bring them under our volitional control? The former is giving in to the devil's temptation while the latter is putting our faith in God and shouldering the burden of our cross to bear.

Yes. And to stay consistent, such spiritual anarchist needs to imagine god in his own image, theodicy by divine anarchy. Otherwise challenge of self-discipline can have no meaning.

[AshvinP]

It is a matter of degree and the choice is whether to become more or less independent, knowing to the fullest extent possible what the consequences of either options are. The temptation of Christ can be viewed as a test of exactly how much we rule over our own will, feelings, and thoughts. As Jung famously remarked, "people don't have ideas, ideas have people". Are we going to remain their puppets in relative safety or are we going to diligently bring them under our volitional control? The former is giving in to the devil's temptation while the latter is putting our faith in God and shouldering the burden of our cross to bear.

Yes. And to stay consistent, such spiritual anarchist needs to imagine god in his own image, theodicy by divine anarchy. Otherwise challenge of self-discipline can have no meaning.

Yes at the very least we need to imagine a real possibility of theosis.

[Lou Gold]

It is a matter of degree and the choice is whether to become more or less independent, knowing to the fullest extent possible what the consequences of either options are. The temptation of Christ can be viewed as a test of exactly how much we rule over our own will, feelings, and thoughts. As Jung famously remarked, "people don't have ideas, ideas have people". Are we going to remain their puppets in relative safety or are we going to diligently bring them under our volitional control? The former is giving in to the devil's temptation while the latter is putting our faith in God and shouldering the burden of our cross to bear.

Yes. And to stay consistent, such spiritual anarchist needs to imagine god in his own image, theodicy by divine anarchy. Otherwise challenge of self-discipline can have no meaning.

Yes at the very least we need to imagine a real possibility of theosis.

Yes. And to stay consistent, such spiritual anarchist needs to imagine god in his own image, theodicy by divine anarchy. Otherwise challenge of self-discipline can have no meaning.

Words are tricky but why not imagine his own image as already in god? Does the challenge of self-discipline arise only from a sense of separation? Or, what in God's name is not God?

[SanteriSatama]

Or, what in God's name is not God?

His Omnipotence and Omniscience.

Oh God, why have You forsaken us?

Dear God, to heal you and us from your omnipotence and omniscience. To make god one of us.

[Lou Gold]

Or, what in God's name is not God?

His Omnipotence and Omniscience.

Oh God, why have You forsaken us?

Dear God, to heal you and us from your omnipotence and omniscience. To make god one of us.

Already is.

[Shaibei]

I feel the old Jewish tradition in my ancestral lineage and in certain 'seeds' planted in me in a secular way by my childhood culture.

Interesting. Although not surprising. How far is the lineage?
Here is an article on (mainly) Kabbalah and shamanism. I'm not one to connect with New Age spirituality, but whatever, it's written nicely
https://www.awakeninthedream.com/articl ... kable-idea

[Lou Gold]

My Grandfather was a Jewish socialist immigrant from the Pale near Kiev. I was born into a value concern for justice and liberation. I believe this goes way back and includes many ancestral details. I can't provide details. It's more like a deep intuitive sensibility. Thanks for the article which I'll check out. I like Paul Levy.