Philosophical Speculations

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm And at Facebook folks are surely not discussing in metaphysical terms issues such as individual free choice or in the specific context of BK's alter constructions (whirlpools, DID, etc) the glaring absence of alter structures such as governments, corporations, economies or the earth itself. The challenge here is not to divert from metaphysics to covid but to see what metaphysics can contribute to practical existential realities where the rubber meets the road. If metaphysics can't or seeks to "cancel" hard problems, I see little hope that Idealism might become the guiding consensus. The deeper question is whether ideas cause events or events cause ideas. My answer is both/and which is, I acknowledge, an awkward fundamental position. Mitakuye Oyasin and Vivas to The Great Mysteriousness

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm The deeper question is whether ideas cause events or events cause ideas. My answer is both/and which is, I acknowledge, an awkward fundamental position.

SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:25 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm The deeper question is whether ideas cause events or events cause ideas. My answer is both/and which is, I acknowledge, an awkward fundamental position.

Anaximander's concept of apeiron (which coincides with notion of 'open interval' <> in Relop) offers commentary on this question.


ἐξ ὧν δὲ ἡ γένεσίς ἐστι τοῖς οὖσι, καὶ τὴν φθορὰν εἰς ταῦτα γίνεσθαι κατὰ τὸ χρεών: διδόναι γὰρ αὐτὰ δίκην καὶ τίσιν ἀλλήλοις τῆς ἀδικίας κατὰ τὴν τοῦ χρόνου τάξιν

"From where things have their origin, there their destruction happens as it is ordained [Greek: kata to chreon means "according to the debt"]. For they give justice and compensation to one another for their injustice according to the ordering of time."


Finnish has word-concept for "From where things have their origin": synnyt ('Births'). Most often spoken in alliteration synnyt syvät ("deep births"). The concept coincides with Bohm's notion of 'generative order', and how that relates to implicate and explicate orders.

The births/generative orders give justice and compensation to each other according how injustice unfolds and explicates in the durations of times.

In other words, a self correcting algorithm that adjusts it's participatory generators according to how their results relate to each other.

In other words, a self correcting algorithm that adjusts it's participatory generators according to how their results relate to each other.

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:14 pm I'm seeking some clarification here regarding the posting of newsworthy articles as topics of discussion, of the kind that one can find just about anywhere nowadays, but which have no metaphysical focus or intention written into them ~ e.g. Lou's 'topic' linking to the Covid crisis in Brazil, and another such article posted today. Whatever Lou's motivation in this case, I feel that it's important that the forum stay within its intended metaphysical focus, and so no matter how topical or important such newsworthy stories may be, they should have some clearly focused, nuanced metaphysical intention written within the story itself, above and beyond just being newsworthy. I understand that there can be a subjective grey area, and one needs to grant some leeway, but in the case of the Covid articles Lou has shared, I'm not seeing much grey area, but just straight up journalism intended solely to do what journalism is meant to do, far from what metaphysics is meant to do. However, feedback is welcome here, as to whether or not others feel that I'm being unreasonable here in wanting to keep the forum from becoming just a mini version of Facebook.

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:15 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:24 pm And at Facebook folks are surely not discussing in metaphysical terms issues such as individual free choice or in the specific context of BK's alter constructions (whirlpools, DID, etc) the glaring absence of alter structures such as governments, corporations, economies or the earth itself. The challenge here is not to divert from metaphysics to covid but to see what metaphysics can contribute to practical existential realities where the rubber meets the road. If metaphysics can't or seeks to "cancel" hard problems, I see little hope that Idealism might become the guiding consensus. The deeper question is whether ideas cause events or events cause ideas. My answer is both/and which is, I acknowledge, an awkward fundamental position. Mitakuye Oyasin and Vivas to The Great Mysteriousness

Ok ... But that sort of nuanced metaphysical discussion can be had, and has been had herein, without linking to an article that as far as I can tell, in and of itself, has no nuanced metaphysical focus or intention written into it, but rather is solely politically focused and charged with countless provocative, arguably partisan points that could be politically contested, and indeed perhaps should be. So I still await some consensus on this, unless most are good with leaving it up to the role of the moderator.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:58 pmPS: I thought the NYT article was damn good investigative journalism. Interesting that you saw it as "solely politically focused and charged with countless provocative, arguably partisan points that could be politically contested." Similar might be said about BK's recent rant about the papal decision on gay marriage. I waited more than I day for you to post it here but you didn't and so I did. Makes me suspect that you just don't like politics.

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:18 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:58 pmPS: I thought the NYT article was damn good investigative journalism. Interesting that you saw it as "solely politically focused and charged with countless provocative, arguably partisan points that could be politically contested." Similar might be said about BK's recent rant about the papal decision on gay marriage. I waited more than I day for you to post it here but you didn't and so I did. Makes me suspect that you just don't like politics.

BK's Church article clearly had the kind of nuanced metaphysical focus and intention written into it that I feel should be a prerequisite here. Curiously, BK also shared that Church article on Facebook, and then explicitly stated that he was checking out of the comments section, asking folks to behave themselves

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:08 pm In this instance, I didn't post the Church article here, because I only check into BK's blog now and then, and don't have a Facebook account, so don't follow him there, in which case I may have shared it here, had you not beat me to it.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:21 pmThe post was made in the Essay section of this BK site of which this forum is another section. I'm not sure what you mean by "BK's blog." Does he have one?