Meaningful Conversations

[The_Soft_Parade]

I'm not sure if there is a question here or if I'm going to articulate this in a way to clearly get my point across, but I will try.

"What good is Idealism for society? Who cares that it is all mind."

"I don't need God or Idealism to be a moral and good person."

"Truth is relative. It's all made up. a social construct."

"Once wealth is redistributed equally, all people have the same opportunities, this or that political party in power, then life will be good. Ontology does not matter."

"There is no truth and it doesn't matter because collectively we can build a just society. We don't need any of that nonsense. Look at me! I'm an atheist and I am a good morally person that donates to charities etc.."

"Life has no meaning."

I don't feel like I am exaggerating either. 99% of the people I speak to or see online are only concerned with redistribution of power and resources. There is no talk about philosophy, ontology or metaphysics. And when challenged, they just say I don't need any of that in order to be morally good and society does not need that either. Talks about ontology or metaphysics are usually pinned as cultural appropriation, spiritual bypassing, or savior complex.

I know we can talk about materialism being devoid of meaning, but people don't seem to care. Especially young people. They don't care about life having meaning, they just care about people being treated equally, resources being divided equally, taxing the rich, etc..
Not saying these are bad things (on the contrary!), but it seems futile to have meaningful conversations about change in ontology.

This seems to be the majority of people. How are we to have meaningful conversations?!

[Shaibei]

Personally I do not think that idealism necessarily carries meaning. M @ L can be described as a blind will or a computational mind.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I've long since given up any illusions of trying to have these kind of conversations with those who just are not ripe for it, since as you've already surmised, one might as well be talking to a wall. However, I've also discovered countless folks, many of them very young still, increasingly and eagerly seeking each other out online and having these kind of deep, meaningful conversations, and can actually spend hours on any given day watching and reading these encounters in cyberspace connecting seekers from all over the world, and there seems to be no end in sight. So as usual, what is focused on determines what is missed. Aside from that, I feel that one can only be a clear and present example of what is possible, which others may follow if so inclined ... Yet to everything, and everyone, there is a season for 'sleeping' and 'awakening', and however hard one may try to hurry it along, it must wait for its allotted time. In the meantime be mindful of what is focused on.

[SanteriSatama]

Well, we tend to restrict confiding heart-to-heart to situations where set and setting feels right, often by a pint or a few, etc.

Online, where our bodily etc. presence is usually more thin, creates new challenges as well as opportunities to find supportive platforms and forums for meaningful discussions.

But who decides, what is really meaningful, who gives the meaning? Suppose you meet on Facebook or Twitter some stranger, who for reasons you can't comprehend, speaks in very aggressive and insulting manner? What is the meaning of the situation, what the challenge? Should you go inform Big Brother about another case of vile "hate speech", so that authorities can take appropriate measures and cancel and exclude the person from public social sphere?

Or, perhaps, could the meaning of the confrontation be to listen with your heart. And maybe if you do, you may be able to hear and deduce that the person is speaking from the condition of "Borderline disorder", as that order is named in Western language. So, what meaning do you give in that situation? Do you do the smart thing, shut down communication, and seek more meaningful discussions about your favorite philosophical topic?

Or, do you gather all your strength, all your experience and skill, so that you can withstand the onslaught and stay firm in your compassionate presence, not shaking an inch by the storm blowing at you, not getting in any way drawn into the game of projecting, and just let the right words come as they are required, until the storm is over?

If you can pull something like that in some situation, what is the meaning of that - not only for your deserved reward self-admiration and growth in self-confidence, but also and especially for the other person suffering from terrible loneliness and very deep need and lack of trust? You can't decide for the other person, but you can trust that the meaning you both shared was for the better.

[Lou Gold]

With only my direct experience in mind, all I can say is that conversation itself seems to be the most meaningful thing. I consider M@L as The Great Mysteriousness. I grok that the Whole is instinctual in the sense that it simply is what it is. I consider Idealism openly plausible. I also ask, "So what?"

[The_Soft_Parade]

Thank you Santeri and Lou for reminding me that the end result is always love.

[Soul_of_Shu]

And it strikes me as clearly evident, in the conversations I listen to by those who feel impelled to seek out others with whom to relate in this deep way, in watching how they passionately interrelate, is how much they truly love meeting and having such conversations, and thus are evermore imperatively driven by that love to seek each other out from wherever they may be feeling isolated, tirelessly turning over every stone, such that love is both the impetus and the result.

[Lou Gold]

And it strikes me as clearly evident, in the conversations I listen to by those who feel impelled to seek out others with whom to relate in this deep way, in watching how they passionately interrelate, is how much they truly love meeting and having such conversations, and thus are evermore imperatively driven by that love to seek each other out from wherever they may be feeling isolated, tirelessly turning over every stone, such that love is both the impetus and the result.

Getting is giving.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I'm reminded here of trying to find others to relate to in a deeply meaningful way far back in the pre-internet days, with the best option being to make the 90 minute trip from Bowen Island BC into the 'bohemian' neighborhood of Vancouver west, every couple of months or so, where the only bookstore dedicated to metaphysics happened to be, and whereupon some rare occasion one would find a soulmate there to chat with. The rest of the time there was pretty much no-one who could relate to my interest in these ideas, and so quite a bit of poetry was scribbled down, as a way of talking to oneself.

[Lou Gold]

I'm reminded here of trying to find others to relate to in a deeply meaningful way far back in the pre-internet days, with the best option being to make the 90 minute trip from Bowen Island BC into the 'bohemian' neighborhood of Vancouver west, every couple of months or so, where the only bookstore dedicated to metaphysics happened to be, and whereupon some rare occasion one would find a soulmate there to chat with. The rest of the time there was pretty much no-one who could relate to my interest in these ideas, and so quite a bit of poetry was scribbled down, as a way of talking to oneself.

Perhaps we are always finding ways of talking to oneself -- hopefully in expanding ways -- that notion give a gladness in my heart, which is what an old guy wants.