Philosophical Speculations

Wordsworth's "Tintern Abbey". Wordsworth was a bit of a pantheist.

Yes there is a hint of pantheism there, although he was a firm Anglican as far as I’m aware.

I’d argue it’s more along the lines of what you see in the Psalms and in Paul’s letters, such as “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made” ..

Simon Adams wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:26 pm Yes there is a hint of pantheism there, although he was a firm Anglican as far as I’m aware.

I’d argue it’s more along the lines of what you see in the Psalms and in Paul’s letters, such as “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made” ..

Aka panentheism

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:41 pm
Aka panentheism

Haha ... yes I’m happy with a weak panentheism. The challenge is that many flavours of panentheism are fairly strong where the universe (mind/substance/forms + matter/representation/things) are god. To me that’s a bit like saying the sun is shining on some plants, so the plants are sun. Yes in a deep way the plants get their energy from the sun, and so at some level they are intimately connected and reliant on the sun. Without the sun there would be no plants, and what the plants are is indirectly shaped by the sun, but the plants are not sun.

Simon Adams wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:29 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:41 pm
Aka panentheism

Haha ... yes I’m happy with a weak panentheism. The challenge is that many flavours of panentheism are fairly strong where the universe (mind/substance/forms + matter/representation/things) are god. To me that’s a bit like saying the sun is shining on some plants, so the plants are sun. Yes in a deep way the plants get their energy from the sun, and so at some level they are intimately connected and reliant on the sun. Without the sun there would be no plants, and what the plants are is indirectly shaped by the sun, but the plants are not sun.

This is where I find it helpful to hold a Father/Mother/Child formulation where the Father is Creative, the Mother is Generative, and the Child is Integrative in a Process called the Great Mysteriousness.

Simon Adams wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:29 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:41 pm
Aka panentheism

Haha ... yes I’m happy with a weak panentheism. The challenge is that many flavours of panentheism are fairly strong where the universe (mind/substance/forms + matter/representation/things) are god. To me that’s a bit like saying the sun is shining on some plants, so the plants are sun. Yes in a deep way the plants get their energy from the sun, and so at some level they are intimately connected and reliant on the sun. Without the sun there would be no plants, and what the plants are is indirectly shaped by the sun, but the plants are not sun.

Doesn't that imagery of plant striving up towards its Source lose a lot of potency when we add, "but, alas, it never shall reach..."? It does for me.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:25 am
Doesn't that imagery of plant striving up towards its Source lose a lot of potency when we add, "but, alas, it never shall reach..."? It does for me.

No I don’t think it does. The plant that wants to be the sun thinks that the sun get’s it’s energy from photosynthesis. The wise plant keeps it’s connection to the sun, turning to face it through the day, and storing it’s energy through the night. It becomes fully aligned with the sun, a union of sun-ness and plant-ness.

You could say it’s one of the layers of meaning in this parable ...

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:55 am
This is where I find it helpful to hold a Father/Mother/Child formulation where the Father is Creative, the Mother is Generative, and the Child is Integrative in a Process called the Great Mysteriousness.

Yes I find it strange when people say it’s sexist to call god “he”. It’s clear god transcends labels of sex, but in a symbolic way it makes natural sense. You have the nurturing womb with potential, that is seeded with a likeness from ‘outside’. This forms a new life that is an integrated mixing of the image from earth and the image from god, base desires and transcendent potential.

Simon Adams wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:14 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:25 am
Doesn't that imagery of plant striving up towards its Source lose a lot of potency when we add, "but, alas, it never shall reach..."? It does for me.

No I don’t think it does. The plant that wants to be the sun thinks that the sun get’s it’s energy from photosynthesis. The wise plant keeps it’s connection to the sun, turning to face it through the day, and storing it’s energy through the night. It becomes fully aligned with the sun, a union of sun-ness and plant-ness.

You could say it’s one of the layers of meaning in this parable ...

I agree. The question is, in the context of the imagery and parable, what does it truly mean to become "fully aligned" with someone, to become "exalted" to their position out of our humility? Certainly it is more than simple agreement with them or to be given rewards from them for our obedience. Perhaps these verses are also important to consider in that context:

"Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth" (Psalm 46:10)

"Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, [Christ] poured out this which you now see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:21 pm

Simon Adams wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:14 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:25 am
Doesn't that imagery of plant striving up towards its Source lose a lot of potency when we add, "but, alas, it never shall reach..."? It does for me.

No I don’t think it does. The plant that wants to be the sun thinks that the sun get’s it’s energy from photosynthesis. The wise plant keeps it’s connection to the sun, turning to face it through the day, and storing it’s energy through the night. It becomes fully aligned with the sun, a union of sun-ness and plant-ness.

You could say it’s one of the layers of meaning in this parable ...

I agree. The question is, in the context of the imagery and parable, what does it truly mean to become "fully aligned" with someone, to become "exalted" to their position out of our humility? Certainly it is more than simple agreement with them or to be given rewards from them for our obedience. Perhaps these verses are also important to consider in that context:

"Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth" (Psalm 46:10)

"Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, [Christ] poured out this which you now see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

The motto displayed in the ceremony hall of the Santo Daime community where I once lived says, "Humility is the symbol nobility." The word 'humility' is derived from the Greek humus and means "to be grounded in the real." With a non-hierarchical sense of reality -- everything connected or Mitakuye Oyasin -- alignment with the truth of interbeing is exalted and the more realized ones generally feel humble and in easy alignment with the many. OTOH, if one believes in hierarchy and rankism, it's a whole different story.

In the artistic context, the greatest sculptor of the 20th Century in the West Henry Moore was the master of the reclining figure, which brought the 'exalted' down from the Classical pedestal pose and, instead, made the humble noble.