Consciousness can change physical reality.

[Lou Gold]

Here is a very intriguing quote from Yuval Noah Harari.

The undeniable power of Consciousness to alter physical reality.

“Ever since the Cognitive Revolution, Sapiens have thus been living in a dual reality. On the one hand, the objective reality of rivers, trees and lions; and on the other hand, the imagined reality of gods, nations and corporations. As time went by, the imagined reality became ever more powerful, so that today the very survival of rivers, trees and lions depends on the grace of imagined entities such as the United States and Google.”

OK, YNH would be considered by most folks here to be a Materialist, which is what makes the quote so intriguing. Of course, there are many nuances such as how 'imagined' or 'gods' are defined but, in my view, he actually offers stronger practical and commonly understandable arguments for the power of consciousness than do most Idealists.

[Jim Cross]

How does Google help rivers, tree, and lions survive?

If it does it all, it does it either by employees or inspired users taking actual physical actions in the material world.

On the other hand, you can also find Google ads for hunting safaris.

https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

https://omujevehuntingsafaris.com/?gcli ... 8wQAvD_BwE

[Lou Gold]

How does Google help rivers, tree, and lions survive?

If it does it all, it does it either by employees or inspired users taking actual physical actions in the material world.

On the other hand, you can also find Google ads for hunting safaris.

https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

https://omujevehuntingsafaris.com/?gcli ... 8wQAvD_BwE

Jim,

You have completely missed the point, which is that rivers, trees and lions now depend on Google (etc) being graceful, which it may be only at times. As for the employees, their activities are organized by and depend on money, which is another imagined reality. Your exceptions actually prove the point that YNH is making.

[Jim Cross]

How does Google help rivers, tree, and lions survive?

If it does it all, it does it either by employees or inspired users taking actual physical actions in the material world.

On the other hand, you can also find Google ads for hunting safaris.

https://www.google.com/search?q=safari+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

https://omujevehuntingsafaris.com/?gcli ... 8wQAvD_BwE

Jim,

You have completely missed the point, which is that rivers, trees and lions now depend on Google (etc) being graceful, which it may be only at times. As for the employees, their activities are organized by and depend on money, which is another imagined reality. Your exceptions actually prove the point that YNH is making.

Actually you've missed my point. Google and the United States really don't exist. They are category abstractions that group together many different kinds of things. When we say they do anything at all, it is not at all in literal sense. We are just taking a sort of shot cut that language allows us to do.

If you are saying Mind is in this same sense like Google or the United States, then you are making a strong materialist point that Mind too is an category abstraction that groups together many different kinds of things but actually can do nothing in a literal sense.

[Soul_of_Shu]

... in my view, he actually offers stronger practical and commonly understandable arguments for the power of consciousness than do most Idealists.

You must be tiring of other arguments you're involved in, to offer up this utterly ridiculous point.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Metacognitive conscious agents that have dreamed up ideas like the United States and Google are also what will conceive of the needed paradigm shift away from the current deprived one, with the praxis that is wedded to it serving the function of sustaining the status quo. Speaking of paradigm shifts, this conversation between Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke may be of some value, with the added bonus of tying in Corbin's imaginal realm and the role it plays in such shifts ...

[SanteriSatama]

USA and Alphabet Inc may be (small) gods, but they are not sentient gods, only abstract gods aka algorithms.

[Lou Gold]

Actually you've missed my point. Google and the United States really don't exist. They are category abstractions that group together many different kinds of things. When we say they do anything at all, it is not at all in literal sense. We are just taking a sort of shot cut that language allows us to do.

If you are saying Mind is in this same sense like Google or the United States, then you are making a strong materialist point that Mind too is an category abstraction that groups together many different kinds of things but actually can do nothing in a literal sense.

Yours is not my read, which is that YNH is saying that Google, the US and money are abstract fictions and that it is only the belief in them that make them powerful enough to alter physical reality. Simple example: there's no way to build a CERN without the fiction of money, which is the medium or mechanism or myth that allows thousands of strangers to cooperate in a networked mutual endeavor. YES! "When we say they do anything at all, it is not at all in literal sense." And, as BK elegantly points out in MTA, for the magic to work it must be believed as literally true. I grok it deeply and appreciatively when BK says that MTA is probably his most important book.

[Lou Gold]

Metacognitive conscious agents that have dreamed up ideas like the United States and Google are also what will conceive of the needed paradigm shift away from the current deprived one, with the praxis that is wedded to it serving the function of sustaining the status quo. Speaking of paradigm shifts, this conversation between Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke may be of some value, with the added bonus of tying in Corbin's imaginal realm and the role it plays in such shifts ...

Shu,

The video is too long for me now but intuitively I certainly grok the important distinction between 'imagined' and Corbin's 'imaginal'. The former is fictional and the latter is very real. I'm certain the imaginal plays an important role in the shift and I'm certain the imaginal includes real proponents and opponents of the shift.

[Lou Gold]

... in my view, he actually offers stronger practical and commonly understandable arguments for the power of consciousness than do most Idealists.

You must be tiring of other arguments you're involved in, to offer up this utterly ridiculous point.

When you think on it more deeply, you may find it not so ridiculous. Consider it this way: Historians curate events and philosophers curate ideas. People, in general, bounce about in their joys and pains without these broader views. If their anxiety is about starving in the now/here they will go with the Materialists. If their anxiety is about the there/later they will probably go with the Idealists. And which way this might go in corporeal material plane evolution probably depends on the play of events.