Consciousness can change physical reality.

[Soul_of_Shu]

It 's an interesting question whether changing minds and views makes all that much difference. Personally I'm not sure of the exact answer.

It seems like there is a huge amount of inertia in the trends of history. Many minds can do little more than go with the flows. Possibly even many minds can change but the flow continues on its own course. Sometimes, however, a butterfly flaps its wings in the Amazon and the result is a hurricane in Florida. I think there is inertia with tipping points but what causes the tipping isn't always straightforward.

Jim ... I completely concur that it's not at all straightforward as to what factor, or more likely some unknown combination of factors, instigates a tipping point into a phase transition from one paradigm to another. All we do know for sure is that such sifts eventually, even inevitably, do occur, but not as a function of the praxis of the outmoded paradigm. My point only is that to dismiss metaphysical inquiry into conceiving viable alternatives as having no practical value in the process seems entirely unfounded. Yet of course, as Lou emphasizes, ultimately whatever novel consensus praxis is born of the shift must actually be efficacious in making a difference, otherwise all the metaphysical inquiry will have been in vain, but not until then.

[Jim Cross]

It 's an interesting question whether changing minds and views makes all that much difference. Personally I'm not sure of the exact answer.

It seems like there is a huge amount of inertia in the trends of history. Many minds can do little more than go with the flows. Possibly even many minds can change but the flow continues on its own course. Sometimes, however, a butterfly flaps its wings in the Amazon and the result is a hurricane in Florida. I think there is inertia with tipping points but what causes the tipping isn't always straightforward.

Jim ... I completely concur that it's not at all straightforward as to what factor, or more likely some unknown combination of factors, instigates a tipping point into a phase transition from one paradigm to another. All we do know for sure is that such sifts eventually, even inevitably, do occur, but not as a function of the praxis of the outmoded paradigm. My point only is that to dismiss metaphysical inquiry into conceiving viable alternatives as having no practical value in the process seems entirely unfounded. Yet of course, as Lou emphasizes, ultimately whatever novel consensus praxis is born of the shift must actually be efficacious in making a difference, otherwise all the metaphysical inquiry will have been in vain, but not until then.

I wouldn't dismiss metaphysical inquiry either especially since we understand so little of how change really does come about. I think William Irwin Thompson had a sort of spiral view of history where there are cycles but also progression. It could also be that the material trends are also driving towards a spiritual goal in some sort of weird dialectical way.

[Lou Gold]

It 's an interesting question whether changing minds and views makes all that much difference. Personally I'm not sure of the exact answer.

It seems like there is a huge amount of inertia in the trends of history. Many minds can do little more than go with the flows. Possibly even many minds can change but the flow continues on its own course. Sometimes, however, a butterfly flaps its wings in the Amazon and the result is a hurricane in Florida. I think there is inertia with tipping points but what causes the tipping isn't always straightforward.

Jim ... I completely concur that it's not at all straightforward as to what factor, or more likely some unknown combination of factors, instigates a tipping point into a phase transition from one paradigm to another. All we do know for sure is that such sifts eventually, even inevitably, do occur, but not as a function of the praxis of the outmoded paradigm. My point only is that to dismiss metaphysical inquiry into conceiving viable alternatives as having no practical value in the process seems entirely unfounded. Yet of course, as Lou emphasizes, ultimately whatever novel consensus praxis is born of the shift must actually be efficacious in making a difference, otherwise all the metaphysical inquiry will have been in vain, but not until then.

I wouldn't dismiss metaphysical inquiry either especially since we understand so little of how change really does come about. I think William Irwin Thompson had a sort of spiral view of history where there are cycles but also progression. It could also be that the material trends are also driving towards a spiritual goal in some sort of weird dialectical way.

For me the issue is really the timeline. I agree that the interaction between metaphysics and practical reality is complex. I also understand that both Materialism and Idealism play out in Consciousness, which makes Consciousness the ontic prime. In the longer run (centuries often), metaphysics would be the clear winner (the Copernican shift is a fine example). In the shorter, say this 21st century ,with its challenges of pandemics, biodiversity loss and climate change, Materialism will be the driver of events and human responses for better or worse. I further believe that politics will be enormously important in how we proceed.

[SanteriSatama]

For me the issue is really the timeline.

Time is not a line. Radius or a diameter of a circle, is just a linear shadow of the arc and hemisphere behind it. It's not pi and equilateral triangle that are irrational. What is irrational is the Cartesian plane, where equilateral triangle cannot rationally exist.

Materialism will be the driver of events and human responses for better or worse. I further believe that politics will be enormously important in how we proceed.

So you believe that believes matter, your believes included. How could the incoherent babble of DeCartes and Hilbert and their believers rationally cohere and really matter anything true and natural?

Mathematics, which exists in mathematical cognition, is really about relations, ratios. Not about i-maginary numerical objects and false believes in those.

[Soul_of_Shu]

One might liken the current foundering paradigm to a lame gelding that has served a useful role over time, but now is unable to make its way out of the confines of a collapsing barn, with its attendant driver atop an attached wagon in need of quite a few repairs, whereby no amount of flogging the horse, or patchwork repairs, or pointing out the pitfalls in the road beyond, is going to make much difference. Only in this metaphorical scenario the new paradigm/praxis can't just be another horse and wagon that meanwhile have become an anachronism. Whatever eventually must replace it, I see little indication that the politicians on either side of the partisan divide have any clue, as it seems their vested interest is still mainly in propping up the current state of affairs, while those still benefiting from the status quo have a vested interest in propping them up in turn. Hence the truly efficacious driver must come from elsewhere, often driven by forces beyond our purview ~ dare I say even from the imaginal realms ~ while the road ahead is shrouded in mist.

[Ed Konderla]

I feel like the old gelding sitting in the barn. I've lived a life full of observations, decisions then concrete actions now I spend my days sitting in a barn mostly. When I look at the present state of affairs I see humanity living solidly in the world of the "Peter Principal". As amazing as we have the potential to be we are not gods. We have limitations. I think as a group we have reached the limits of our ability to effectively hold off the worst of the mess we have created. Like anything else the thing that makes us so good is also what makes us so bad. Humans are great at reacting but when it comes to acting, not so much. I think that is one reason we fight such a damned good war after creating the conditions that necessitate it. So this is what I see will happen. The system will break down and degenerate to a place where we can jump in again and do some good. Claiming we are capable of wonderful things and spending so much time focusing on human suffering may be nobel in appearance but it is just window dressing in my mind. In my world won't do and can't do are the same thing because they equal don't do.

[Lou Gold]

I feel like the old gelding sitting in the barn. I've lived a life full of observations, decisions then concrete actions now I spend my days sitting in a barn mostly. When I look at the present state of affairs I see humanity living solidly in the world of the "Peter Principal". As amazing as we have the potential to be we are not gods. We have limitations. I think as a group we have reached the limits of our ability to effectively hold off the worst of the mess we have created. Like anything else the thing that makes us so good is also what makes us so bad. Humans are great at reacting but when it comes to acting, not so much. I think that is one reason we fight such a damned good war after creating the conditions that necessitate it. So this is what I see will happen. The system will break down and degenerate to a place where we can jump in again and do some good. Claiming we are capable of wonderful things and spending so much time focusing on human suffering may be nobel in appearance but it is just window dressing in my mind. In my world won't do and can't do are the same thing because they equal don't do.

I also see little evidence that the politicians on either side have a clue as to what is going on. I agree that the system will break down and we will jump in and do the best we can. One of the possibilities is surely extinction of the civilization or the species. There is no scientific evidence that such "dissociated" containers of consciousness are more than temporary. An intervention from the imaginal is a profound possibility. Can anyone provide an example outside of scripture or story where it occurs? My point is that events drive outcomes.

[SanteriSatama]

Politics is an art of manipulation emotions. And all politics we have ever known is based on fear, fearmongering and manipulating political subjects by the handle and hook of their fear. Decisions ruled by fear tend not to be intelligent. Fear is the Mind Killer.

Society is the emotional opposite of politics. Society is based on trust, sharing a Field of Commons and living together free from fear. To build a good society, politics must come to end.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I feel like the old gelding sitting in the barn.

Likewise, corporeally speaking, at times I feel like that lame gelding. Other times I feel like this 'I', that ipseity which one is in essence, is somehow non-locally displaced, dispersed in space, while observing that diaphanous form ~ like Kundera's unbearable lightness of being ~ going through the motions of doing whatever it feels compelled to do, as if at any moment I could easily bid it a fond 'adieu' (from the French, 'I commend you to God'). I suppose the trick is in finding some elusive happy medium wherein to abide while the intriguing mystery of what awaits, and one's integral role within it, inspires me to go deeper and deeper still, in overcoming the despair ... along with a walk in the springtime woods where some new irresistible buds are now reborn.

[Lou Gold]

Carrying the discussion further might be possible by looking at the struggle for independence from colonial rule in India. Two stellar saintly examples were Ramana Maharshi and Mahatma Gandhi. RM sat it out because the result was fated and thus there was no reason to bother. MG said "Be the change you seek" and led a movement. The bloodbath and partition following independence can not be seen as pleasant or expected for either of the saints. The results were fated in unknown ways and, in the process, RM was fated to be a witness and MG was fated to be an activist. Each had a mystical/metaphysical stance to rationalize their fate. And, in the process, which was also fated, events drove outcomes.

Bottom line for me is to search for the way more than to seek the truth.

I agree with the poet:

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack
A crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

I would add that the light has a companion called the dark.