Iain McGilchrist on Existence, Being, the Limits of Reason and Language, and Schizophrenia

[AshvinP]

Curt Jaimungal's interview with Iain McGilchrist is fascinating. His acclaimed book The Master and His Emissary delineated in detail the polar dispositions, i.e. ways of attending to the world, of the right-left (master-emissary) brains. Iain's perspective is very much aligned with idealist panentheism. Great lines from the interview- "things only become what they are in the process of relationships" and "without some degree of resistance, nothing comes into being... what comes into being is shaped and our minds partake of that - every form, every shape, is a denial of something else". He is working on new book called The Matter with Things.



00:00:00​ Introduction
00:01:59​ Conspectus of "Master and his Emissary" (Iain's Weltanschauung)
00:09:59​ What is meaning?
00:12:44​ On writing a 1,000 page book, and developing your own worldview
00:16:19​ Why is God sometimes associated with "becoming" and not "being"?
00:17:46​ How does the mind "bring the world about" rather than observe it?
00:21:44​ Existence needs resistance
00:25:07​ Nietzschean story of the Emissary, and the left-brain being contemptuous of the right
00:29:46​ Not wanting a master, speaking to oneself, and evil
00:32:42​ On "boredom" and the realness of time ("even God cannot exist without time")
00:36:21​ Why the "arrow of time" in physics? (some thoughts on Bergson)
00:40:18​ On Henri Bergson and flow vs slices of time
00:43:52​ Language is like money (the "meaning" of language)
00:47:26​ Music / painting / the arts be made explicit in language
00:49:49​ "Metaphor is a cure by language for the ills entailed by language"
00:52:24​ Reason is related to embodiment
00:56:43​ Is "logic" universal? Would aliens develop them in the same manner?
00:59:05​ Fantasy vs Imagination: "Original" isn't newness, but going back to the "origin"
01:03:02​ The more we're authentic, the more we're the same
01:04:10​ How can something both "be" and "not be" simultaneously
01:05:33​ Wissen vs Kennen (knowledge)
01:06:52​ On schizophrenia
01:17:55​ Non-rhythmic music (right brained) vs rhythmic music (left brain)
01:23:04​ Longing vs wanting (unification vs division)
01:26:52​ Should you engage with the world or disengage?
01:31:20​ The meaning of having "no self"
01:33:28​ Identifying psychological structures neurologically (ego = left hemisphere?)
01:35:52​ Utilitarianism, objective morals, and the left-hemisphere
01:39:43​ On Daniel Dennett's "Consciousness Explained"
01:42:39​ Writing a book about the right-brain, using your left-brain
01:46:22​ Mindfulness is similarly "objective" like the schizophrenic mind?
01:50:03​ Mixing the left and the right brain (coherent but incompatible)
01:54:15​ Does consciousness reside in the left or right hemisphere
01:59:30​ The world is not made out of "things"
02:03:26​ Solving the "never step in the same river twice" paradox, with "being"
02:05:18​ Reason / rationality in their extremes demonstrate their own limitations
02:11:56​ Measuring intelligence via inhibitory neurons, rather than encephalization
02:12:47​ Jung and McGilchrist [Sam Ford]
02:18:42​ "Substitution effect" and its impact to the imbalance between right / left brain in the West [Joanne Dong]
02:20:57​ The left / right distinction is a left phenomenon? [Ciaran Dudley]
02:26:34​ Left / right hemispheres mapping onto the left / right political spectrum?
02:30:17​ Reason vs rationality
02:32:10​ The right brain should be paramount, according to Jesus?
02:34:01​ How can something be more important than reason? Isn't that self defeating?
02:37:05​ How can we "transcend utility"? On the hierarchy of goals / needs
02:40:15​ On Chomsky and Objective Truth [Diego J. Pinto]
02:47:58​ On Douglas Hofstadter's analogy book "Surfaces and Essences"
02:52:05​ Thinking of time as a resource is a destructive idea (eg. "time is wasted")

[AshvinP]

At 1:07, BK gets a mention in the context of the development of CJ's frightening panic attacks and IM says he has heard of BK. They then discuss schizophrenia, "madness and modernism" and Descartes' "schizoid temperament", which is also very much aligned with Barfield's view of schizophrenia discussed here (original post copied below). One thing that clearly comes out of this interview is that Iain's philosophical knowledge is extremely vast and deep yet also radically practical as you would expect from a psychologist-psychiatrist.

History, Guilt and Habit - Chapter 2 - Modern Idolatry (excerpts)

There are two things that are noticeable about the modern psychology... the first is that the root, the subconscious root, of schizophrenia is increasingly being traced to the experience of what I will for the moment call "cut-offness". The second is that the experience is increasingly being regarded, not as one that is peculiar to the patient, but in a greater or less degree as one that is the predicament of humanity, or certainly Western humanity, as a whole.
...
The clinically schizoid are simply the ones who are becoming most sharply aware of it. Thus, they speak of the personality, or the self, as being isolated, encapsulated, excluded, estranged, alienated. There are many different ways of putting it. But what the self of each of us feels isolated from, cut off from, by its encapsulation in the nakedly physical reality presented to it by the common sense of contemporary culture, is precisely its own existential source [the 'true Self'].

Sin and Madness, by Dr. Shirley Sugerman... argues, convincingly to my mind, that what is now conceived and felt as insanity can only be properly understood as the evolutionary metamorphosis of what was formerly conceived and felt as sin.
...
But can there by sin without guilt? Paul Ricouer, in his book The Symbolism of Evil, observes, rightly I think, that a feeling of guilt is the fundamental experience of sin. If so, how can this contemporary madness, from which there is evidence that we all suffer, but about which we certainly do not feel guilty, have anything to do with sin? Perhaps because, although we do not feel guilty about the sin, we do feel guilty because of it.
...
There is atmosphere of guilt. Take for instance the issue of racialism, the relation between the advanced and the so-called "backward nations", or between white and colored... what was until recently called "the white man's burden" was a burden of responsibility, not of guilt.
...
People seem almost to go out of their way to find things to feel guilty about, or to encourage others to feel guilty about. I can think of two reasons in particular why it is bad... such confused feelings of guilt tend to beget paralysis rather than energy... when they do not beget paralysis, feelings of guilt tend to turn rather easily into feelings of hatred and contempt. We may feel a bit guilty ourselves, but we are very sure that a whole lot of other people are much more guilty, and probably ought to be destroyed.
...
And just this darker side to the experience of guilt seems to be even more evident when the experience is collective rather than when it is the individual. 'All are responsible for all', said Alyosha in The Brothers Karamazov. A noble, a truly human sentiment - perhaps the only absolutely human sentiment there is... It is the irritation of guilt that turns it into the impulse to compel, into a determination to use every kind of violence, every device of indoctrination, in order to enforce on all a systematic equality that must entail a mechanical and inhuman uniformity.

[AshvinP]

I'm sorry, but in the context of the metaphysical perspective on collective guilt, sin, etc. as reflection of "cut-offness" discussed by Barfield in History, Guilt and Habit above, I feel compelled to share an excerpt from the Smithsonian museum website which just came across my Twitter account via JP. If this does not reveal the prophetic wisdom of thinkers like Steiner or Barfield, then I don't know what does. Emphasis mine!

https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-abo ... /whiteness

Whiteness and white racialized identity refer to the way that white people, their customs, culture, and beliefs operate as the standard by which all other groups of are compared. Whiteness is also at the core of understanding race in America. Whiteness and the normalization of white racial identity throughout America's history have created a culture where nonwhite persons are seen as inferior or abnormal.

This white-dominant culture also operates as a social mechanism that grants advantages to white people, since they can navigate society both by feeling normal and being viewed as normal. Persons who identify as white rarely have to think about their racial identity because they live within a culture where whiteness has been normalized.

Thinking about race is very different for nonwhite persons living in America. People of color must always consider their racial identity, whatever the situation, due to the systemic and interpersonal racism that still exists.

Whiteness (and its accepted normality) also exist as everyday microaggressions toward people of color. Acts of microaggressions include verbal, nonverbal, and environmental slights, snubs or insults toward nonwhites. Whether intentional or not, these attitudes communicate hostile, derogatory, or harmful messages.

[Jim Cross]

Somebody recommended The Master and His Emissary once. I bought it and found it unreadable. It seemed to be one sweeping generalization after another with little evidence to back any of it up.

Many brains, including most primates, have left-right specialization of brain function. Even chemical molecules have left-right dispositions with the chemistry often working differently for L and D forms.

[Soul_of_Shu]

This white-dominant culture also operates as a social mechanism that grants advantages to white people, since they can navigate society both by feeling normal and being viewed as normal. Persons who identify as white rarely have to think about their racial identity because they live within a culture where whiteness has been normalized.

Both our son and daughter went to live and work in Korea for a couple of years. It wasn't long before they were acutely aware of their non-normal whiteness, and any sense of some privileged advantages they took for granted as white Canadians was quickly dispelled, while discovering that there were some insular aspects of Korean culture that were so foreign to them that without having been born into it they would always feel cut off from it. They were treated with polite respect, but nonetheless they were strangers in a strange land, the level of multi-cultural mixing that they had become accustomed to here seeming an unlikely prospect. I suppose this is why as parents we impressed upon them the value of travelling and experiencing beyond the normality that one takes for granted, as an antidote to such insularity, one result being our mixed-race grandson, who it seems could not care less about it.

[AshvinP]

Somebody recommended The Master and His Emissary once. I bought it and found it unreadable. It seemed to be one sweeping generalization after another with little evidence to back any of it up.

Many brains, including most primates, have left-right specialization of brain function. Even chemical molecules have left-right dispositions with the chemistry often working differently for L and D forms.

It definitely does not fit well with materialism, so maybe that's why you found it so hard to read. If you had kept reading, then you would know the hemispheres do not "specialze" in function. In fact they share many of the same functions (it's interesting you use the word "function" for the hemispheres but "disposition" for the chemicals). The difference is in their attention to the world, i.e. their modes of being. As Hoffman also points out, they are essentially two centers of consciousness within "one" subject which manage to integrate with each other seamlessly when they are connected. They are both necessary but the right hemisphere is older and generally more important for survival.

[AshvinP]

This white-dominant culture also operates as a social mechanism that grants advantages to white people, since they can navigate society both by feeling normal and being viewed as normal. Persons who identify as white rarely have to think about their racial identity because they live within a culture where whiteness has been normalized.

Both our son and daughter went to live and work in Korea for a couple of years. It wasn't long before they were acutely aware of their non-normal whiteness, and any sense of some privileged advantages they took for granted as white Canadians was quickly dispelled, while discovering that there were some insular aspects of that culture that were so foreign to them that without having been born into it they would always feel cut off from it. They were treated with polite respect, but nonetheless they were strangers in a strange land, the level of multi-cultural mixing that they had become accustomed to here seeming an unlikely prospect. I suppose this is why as parents we impressed upon them the value of travelling and experiencing beyond the normality that one takes for granted, as an antidote to such insularity, one result being our mixed-race grandson, who it seems could not care less about it.

That's a great value to instill, travel and experience. I suspect much of this "white guilt" and "microagression" nonsense would fade away if more people here travelled to countries where there is still explicit racial bias, down to the way people look at you while walking down a street. Anyway, the truly frightening metaphysical aspect is the removal of intent from culpability.

[Ben Iscatus]

Anyway, the truly frightening metaphysical aspect is the removal of intent from culpability.

But only frightening to members of the dominant culture who are afraid to see their inbuilt privileges erode.
The intent is not merely in individuals, it is deeply embedded in the culture. Therefore, if justice and equality of opportunity are to occur, the culture must change.

In any case, there's no freedom for individuals to prevent such change. Emergent cultural shifts are of a higher order than individual preferences. It's Destiny.

[Ed Konderla]

This white-dominant culture also operates as a social mechanism that grants advantages to white people, since they can navigate society both by feeling normal and being viewed as normal. Persons who identify as white rarely have to think about their racial identity because they live within a culture where whiteness has been normalized.

Both our son and daughter went to live and work in Korea for a couple of years. It wasn't long before they were acutely aware of their non-normal whiteness, and any sense of some privileged advantages they took for granted as white Canadians was quickly dispelled, while discovering that there were some insular aspects of that culture that were so foreign to them that without having been born into it they would always feel cut off from it. They were treated with polite respect, but nonetheless they were strangers in a strange land, the level of multi-cultural mixing that they had become accustomed to here seeming an unlikely prospect. I suppose this is why as parents we impressed upon them the value of travelling and experiencing beyond the normality that one takes for granted, as an antidote to such insularity, one result being our mixed-race grandson, who it seems could not care less about it.

That's a great value to instill, travel and experience. I suspect much of this "white guilt" and "microagression" nonsense would fade away if more people here travelled to countries where there is still explicit racial bias, down to the way people look at you while walking down a street. Anyway, the truly frightening metaphysical aspect is the removal of intent from culpability.

While working for the Saudi Government in Jubail and Abha from 1988 to 1989 and in Hong Kong from November of 1995 to August of 1997 my wife and I saw so much of this stuff. Both of these countries have huge amounts of expat workers from all over the world and you very quickly become aware this has nothing to do with whiteness and everything to do with humanity. I now live on a small farm in the Andes in rural Ecuador where you have a mix of indigenous from several cultures and Spanish decent and believe me it is rampant.

[AshvinP]

Anyway, the truly frightening metaphysical aspect is the removal of intent from culpability.

But only frightening to members of the dominant culture who are afraid to see their inbuilt privileges erode.
The intent is not merely in individuals, it is deeply embedded in the culture. Therefore, if justice and equality of opportunity are to occur, the culture must change.

In any case, there's no freedom for individuals to prevent such change. Emergent cultural shifts are of a higher order than individual preferences. It's Destiny.

No, it's frightening to anyone who has a basic sense of 20th century history. Collective culpability itself is a perilous notion, let alone collective culpability without intent. Whatever "oppressed" groups use it in their favor now are extremely naïve to to think they will be spared from it later. As the oft-quoted wisdom goes...

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."