Iain McGilchrist on Existence, Being, the Limits of Reason and Language, and Schizophrenia

[Jim Cross]

I don't know what "unquestionable essence" is, and neither does anyone else, but that doesn't stop vocal materialists from claiming it for their worldview.

Can you quote a materialist in context that used that expression? Maybe that would help with the confusion.

I'm not sure how Marcuse is supposed to clarify anything about materialist possibilities.

Marcuse is a Marxist, hence a materialist. Eros and Civilization posits a change in human consciousness through the evolution of technology, increasing material abundance, and societal transformation.

As I have repeatedly noted, not all materialists think "consciousness is only epiphenomenal". Nor would it be inconsistent for a materialist to believe consciousness could be causal in an argument such as this:

1- Consciousness exists.
2- Everything that exists is material.
3- Therefore, consciousness is material.
4- Since consciousness is material, it can have causal effect on other material things.

[AshvinP]

I don't know what "unquestionable essence" is, and neither does anyone else, but that doesn't stop vocal materialists from claiming it for their worldview.

Can you quote a materialist in context that used that expression? Maybe that would help with the confusion.

I'm not sure how Marcuse is supposed to clarify anything about materialist possibilities.

Marcuse is a Marxist, hence a materialist. Eros and Civilization posits a change in human consciousness through the evolution of technology, increasing material abundance, and societal transformation.

As I have repeatedly noted, not all materialists think "consciousness is only epiphenomenal". Nor would it be inconsistent for a materialist to believe consciousness could be causal in an argument such as this:

1- Consciousness exists.
2- Everything that exists is material.
3- Therefore, consciousness is material.
4- Since consciousness is material, it can have causal effect on other material things.

I can quote your number 2 and 3 above, because that is what I was referring to.

Unless you are defining consciousness as exactly identical to "material", which of course is not being done because "material" starts mindless, it is epiphenomenal. To the extent Marcuse is describing a transformation of phenomenal consicous experience due to technology, then I will agree it is a possibility under his materialism. But it is far from the most parsimonious explanation and idealists like Heidegger have thoroughly explored the essence of technology from the idealist perspective. The idealist perspective naturally flows from past to present to future, while the material one posits a static consciousness for most of human history and then a discontinuous leap of consciousness in the future due to technology.

[Jim Cross]

material

adjective derived from or composed of matter
“the material universe”

The word "material" is descriptive of objects, not an object itself, so mental events could be described as material. The notion of that consciousness must be identical to material is absurd. It would be like a saying the red painted wall can't be red because it is not exactly identical to red, which is a nonsensical statement.

Epiphenomenalism is the view that mental events are caused by physical events in the brain, but have no effects upon any physical events

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epiphenomenalism/

The materialist position shouldn't be that difficult to understand. Consciousness is the intrinsic image of the activity of the brain in an way analogous to the idealist view that the brain is extrinsic image of mind. Since it is physical itself (actually the activity the brain) then, of course, it can affect the brain and, hence, affect the body which in turn can act in the physical world.

I'm still looking for that quote about "unquestionable essence". It sounds more like something an idealist could use to describe mind.

[AshvinP]

material

adjective derived from or composed of matter
“the material universe”

The word "material" is descriptive of objects, not an object itself, so mental events could be described as material. The notion of that consciousness must be identical to material is absurd. It would be like a saying the red painted wall can't be red because it is not exactly identical to red, which is a nonsensical statement.

Epiphenomenalism is the view that mental events are caused by physical events in the brain, but have no effects upon any physical events

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epiphenomenalism/

The materialist position shouldn't be that difficult to understand. Consciousness is the intrinsic image of the activity of the brain in an way analogous to the idealist view that the brain is extrinsic image of mind. Since it is physical itself (actually the activity the brain) then, of course, it can affect the brain and, hence, affect the body which in turn can act in the physical world.

I'm still looking for that quote about "unquestionable essence". It sounds more like something an idealist could use to describe mind.

Yes and that is what makes it epiphenomenal. The qualia of experience are not actually causing anything under materialism, we are just under the illusion it is because the material processes in control are hidden from our normal experience. I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding your own position. And a red painted wall we perceive under materialism has no real qualities of redness or paintedness or wallness, but rather is some unspecified configuration of quantum stuff which in no way resembles our experience.

[Ed Konderla]

It is really easy to point out a bad landing and modern society is just eat up with those people. Understanding how to fix it requires a trained pilot. So people that sit around all day long pointing to things like social justice and equal opportunity don't impress me much. These same people think that core change is easy. All it requires is the faulty person becoming what someone else has decided they should become. Change is only easy when it is someone else that needs to do it.

[Jim Cross]

material

adjective derived from or composed of matter
“the material universe”

The word "material" is descriptive of objects, not an object itself, so mental events could be described as material. The notion of that consciousness must be identical to material is absurd. It would be like a saying the red painted wall can't be red because it is not exactly identical to red, which is a nonsensical statement.

Epiphenomenalism is the view that mental events are caused by physical events in the brain, but have no effects upon any physical events

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epiphenomenalism/

The materialist position shouldn't be that difficult to understand. Consciousness is the intrinsic image of the activity of the brain in an way analogous to the idealist view that the brain is extrinsic image of mind. Since it is physical itself (actually the activity the brain) then, of course, it can affect the brain and, hence, affect the body which in turn can act in the physical world.

I'm still looking for that quote about "unquestionable essence". It sounds more like something an idealist could use to describe mind.

Yes and that is what makes it epiphenomenal. The qualia of experience are not actually causing anything under materialism, we are just under the illusion it is because the material processes in control are hidden from our normal experience. I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding your own position. And a red painted wall we perceive under materialism has no real qualities of redness or paintedness or wallness, but rather is some unspecified configuration of quantum stuff which in no way resembles our experience.

One last attempt. The qualia under materialism are material. The qualities are material. There is no difference.

But don't misunderstand. I am not a materialist. You are laboring under the same matter/mind illusion that materialists are. The fact you need to argue so hard against materialism is proof that you are still trapped in the illusion.

[Jim Cross]

It is really easy to point out a bad landing and modern society is just eat up with those people. Understanding how to fix it requires a trained pilot. So people that sit around all day long pointing to things like social justice and equal opportunity don't impress me much. These same people think that core change is easy. All it requires is the faulty person becoming what someone else has decided they should become. Change is only easy when it is someone else that needs to do it.

BTW, where are you in Ecuador? I've been there twice and find it a fascinating country. Here's an account of my visit a few years ago.

https://broadspeculations.com/2011/11/12/don-luis/

Let me quote myself:

The fact is that everything we perceive really is phantasma. The red of the rose is not real. It is a particular wavelength of light. The sound of the distant thunder is not real. It is an acoustic wave moving through the air. Solid objects don’t really exist. We might kick a large rock and we might hurt our foot but physics says the rock is mostly empty space and the pain in our foot is the product of a nerve impulse. Our experiences are all in the past, delayed by a neurological time-lag and assembled into a coherent whole bearing perhaps no resemblance to what is actually “out there” in the world. The pattern forming process in the brain/mind mimics the pattern forming forces of nature. We are completely cut off from real cognition. We are trapped in our sensory equipment and the cognitive apparatus of our brain. We make sense of the world only because we are a part of it and constructed as it is constructed. We are from the same pattern forming processes that built the world. Small wonder that mathematics seems to work so well to describe scientifically the world since the mathematical knowledge springs from the same source as the world.

[AshvinP]

material

adjective derived from or composed of matter
“the material universe”

The word "material" is descriptive of objects, not an object itself, so mental events could be described as material. The notion of that consciousness must be identical to material is absurd. It would be like a saying the red painted wall can't be red because it is not exactly identical to red, which is a nonsensical statement.



https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epiphenomenalism/

The materialist position shouldn't be that difficult to understand. Consciousness is the intrinsic image of the activity of the brain in an way analogous to the idealist view that the brain is extrinsic image of mind. Since it is physical itself (actually the activity the brain) then, of course, it can affect the brain and, hence, affect the body which in turn can act in the physical world.

I'm still looking for that quote about "unquestionable essence". It sounds more like something an idealist could use to describe mind.

Yes and that is what makes it epiphenomenal. The qualia of experience are not actually causing anything under materialism, we are just under the illusion it is because the material processes in control are hidden from our normal experience. I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding your own position. And a red painted wall we perceive under materialism has no real qualities of redness or paintedness or wallness, but rather is some unspecified configuration of quantum stuff which in no way resembles our experience.

One last attempt. The qualia under materialism are material. The qualities are material. There is no difference.

But don't misunderstand. I am not a materialist. You are laboring under the same matter/mind illusion that materialists are. The fact you need to argue so hard against materialism is proof that you are still trapped in the illusion.

So now you are going with the consciousness=material argument, while a few comments ago "the notion that consciousness must be identical to material [was] absurd" to you. OK, fine, then answer this simple question - under materialism, (1) is a single neuron conscious, (2) do certain configurations of neurons give rise to consciousness, or (3) are some configurations of neurons identical to consciousness? Most would say 1 is panpsychism, and only 2 or 3 is consistent with materialism. How about you?

[Ed Konderla]

It is really easy to point out a bad landing and modern society is just eat up with those people. Understanding how to fix it requires a trained pilot. So people that sit around all day long pointing to things like social justice and equal opportunity don't impress me much. These same people think that core change is easy. All it requires is the faulty person becoming what someone else has decided they should become. Change is only easy when it is someone else that needs to do it.

BTW, where are you in Ecuador? I've been there twice and find it a fascinating country. Here's an account of my visit a few years ago.

https://broadspeculations.com/2011/11/12/don-luis/

Let me quote myself:

The fact is that everything we perceive really is phantasma. The red of the rose is not real. It is a particular wavelength of light. The sound of the distant thunder is not real. It is an acoustic wave moving through the air. Solid objects don’t really exist. We might kick a large rock and we might hurt our foot but physics says the rock is mostly empty space and the pain in our foot is the product of a nerve impulse. Our experiences are all in the past, delayed by a neurological time-lag and assembled into a coherent whole bearing perhaps no resemblance to what is actually “out there” in the world. The pattern forming process in the brain/mind mimics the pattern forming forces of nature. We are completely cut off from real cognition. We are trapped in our sensory equipment and the cognitive apparatus of our brain. We make sense of the world only because we are a part of it and constructed as it is constructed. We are from the same pattern forming processes that built the world. Small wonder that mathematics seems to work so well to describe scientifically the world since the mathematical knowledge springs from the same source as the world.

It appears you had really interesting "trip". The easiest way is to give you the co-ordinates to plug into Google maps. It's not the end of the world but you can see it from here. I was in Tena and Puyo about 3 months ago. -3.311583, -79.205816

[Ed Konderla]

Once you figure out that "reality" is a façade it makes life really interesting.