What is a belief? Who is believing?

[Eugene I]

Let me put it this way - the highest possible goal for any individual is that which satisfies their deepest spiritual needs. So if we were to take a survey and ask individual humans to specify those needs, and we assume everyone is self-aware enough to know their deepest needs and honest on the survey, then the satisfaction of whatever they write down is the highest goal. They don't have to be exactly the same for everyone (which should address your democratic concerns). But, I have a feeling every human's list would end up looking very similar to each other.

I agree, very similar in one way with many commonalities, but never exactly the same, and often with quite significant differences.

[AshvinP]

Let me put it this way - the highest possible goal for any individual is that which satisfies their deepest spiritual needs. So if we were to take a survey and ask individual humans to specify those needs, and we assume everyone is self-aware enough to know their deepest needs and honest on the survey, then the satisfaction of whatever they write down is the highest goal. They don't have to be exactly the same for everyone (which should address your democratic concerns). But, I have a feeling every human's list would end up looking very similar to each other.

I agree, very similar in one way with many commonalities, but never exactly the same, and often with quite significant differences.

Maybe something like this:

"...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control"

[Eugene I]

Maybe something like this:

"...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control"

Sure, definitely those. But why not others, such as creativity, appreciation of beauty, enjoyment of the beauty of forms and ideas, appreciation of non-dual and unconditioned aspects of consciousness?

[Soul_of_Shu]

Let me put it this way - the highest possible goal for any individual is that which satisfies their deepest spiritual needs.

I concur that everyone, without exception, is seeking some idea of ultimate contentment/fulfillment. And ultimately, that can only truly be the indelible knowing of one's essential nature as this conscious unicity, whereby that which is sought, is revealed as That which is seeking. And as long as this spell of separation from That remains, then in lieu of That which transcends any belief, is substituted a mere belief ~ e.g. "If I were just materially fulfilled enough, or religious enough, or whatever enough, yada, yada", at the core of which is the one belief that is most problematic: the belief in some seeker that is somehow actually apart from That which is seeking, and some chasm that must be bridged, whereas one is never not That in this very moment, except for some belief that that is not the case, which only stands in the way. What then remains is not so much seeking, but appreciatively exploring all that That can be.

[Eugene I]

I concur that everyone, without exception, is seeking some idea of ultimate contentment/fulfillment. And ultimately, that can only truly be the indelible knowing of one's essential nature as this conscious unicity, whereby that which is sought, is revealed as That which is seeking. And as long as this spell of separation from That remains, then in lieu of That which transcends any belief, is substituted a mere belief ~ e.g. "If I were just materially fulfilled enough, or religious enough, or whatever enough, yada, yada", at the core of which is the one belief that is most problematic: the belief in some seeker that is somehow actually apart from That which is seeking, and some chasm that must be bridged, whereas one is never not That in this very moment, except for some belief that that is not the case, which only stands in the way. What then remains is not so much seeking, but appreciatively exploring all that That can be.

That is right, but what if such ultimate contentment is not the ultimate goal and telos, but only a gate into a different mode of existence free of "seeking" (and all the confusions and sufferings of the separated and seeking state of mind), but still full of life, participation, further development and creativity, with unlimited ways to develop, express and explore the world of Consciousness? With perhaps the only exception that it would not collapse back to the state of forgetfulness with the loss of the "indelible knowing of one's essential nature"?

[Soul_of_Shu]

That is right, but what if such ultimate contentment is not the ultimate goal and telos, but only a gate into a different mode of existence free of "seeking" (and all the confusions and sufferings of the separated and seeking state of mind), but still full of life, participation, further development and creativity, with unlimited ways to develop, express and explore the world of Consciousness? With perhaps the only exception that it would not collapse back to the state of forgetfulness with the loss of the "indelible knowing of one's essential nature"?

Yes, and in the last sentence that is basically what is implied ..."What then remains is not so much seeking, but appreciatively exploring all that That can be."

[AshvinP]

Maybe something like this:

"...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control"

Sure, definitely those. But why not others, such as creativity, appreciation of beauty, enjoyment of the beauty of forms and ideas, appreciation of non-dual and unconditioned aspects of consciousness?

I was with you until that last one, "appreciation of non-dual and unconditioned aspects of consciousness"

We can definitely add to the list, keeping in mind the more we add the less meaningful it becomes. If every possible thing we can think of is added then it becomes meaningless.

[Eugene I]

I was with you until that last one, "appreciation of non-dual and unconditioned aspects of consciousness"

We can definitely add to the list, keeping in mind the more we add the less meaningful it becomes. If every possible thing we can think of is added then it becomes meaningless.

No, I think the more we add the more meaning-full it becomes

[Soul_of_Shu]

We can definitely add to the list, keeping in mind the more we add the less meaningful it becomes. If every possible thing we can think of is added then it becomes meaningless.

Well, although some wise guy once said, paraphrasing, "Seek first the Kingdom, and all these things shall be added onto you", it seems there is an infinitude of possible things, so no worries about adding then all, since they are endless. Strangely enough, there is now even the appreciation of all that formerly was not appreciated, all that had been obfuscated and relegated to the shadow is now appreciated as being integral to the process, as in 'to everything there is a season ... etc'.

[AshvinP]

I was with you until that last one, "appreciation of non-dual and unconditioned aspects of consciousness"

We can definitely add to the list, keeping in mind the more we add the less meaningful it becomes. If every possible thing we can think of is added then it becomes meaningless.

No, I think the more we add the more meaning-full it becomes

It's easy to see why that is not the case - if you tell me to make a list of my color preferences, and I write on my list all the colors which exist and say they are all equally preferable to me, then neither one of us has gained anything of value from the exercise.