Speculation About the Discovery of Ideal Forms

[AshvinP]

Why is this relevant? Do you think the question of why/how physical laws exist is an example of fundamentally limited capacity for knowledge?

No, it is just an evidence of the fact that your current knowledge is limited. And not only yours but other spiritual scientists too (unless you can show me where Hagel or Steiner or anyone else have an answer to that question).

Steiner has explored that question in depth in multiple books and lectures. For ex., you could check out Goethean Science or The Science of Knowing:

The Task of Science

Ultimately it is true for all science what Goethe expressed so aptly with the words: “In and for itself, theory [ Theorie. In German, this word still connotes more of the sense of the Greek original: what thinking “sees.” –Ed. ] is worth nothing, except insofar as it makes us believe in the interconnections of phenomena.” Through science we are always bringing separate facts of our experience into a connection with each other. In inorganic nature we see causes and effects as separate from each other, and we seek their connections in the appropriate sciences. In the organic world we perceive species and genera of organisms and try to determine their mutual relationships. In history we are confronted with the individual cultural epochs of humanity; we try to recognize the inner dependency of one stage of development upon the other. Thus each science has to work within a particular domain of phenomena in the sense of the Goethean principle articulated above.

Each science has its own area in which it seeks the interconnections of phenomena. But there still remains a great polarity in our scientific efforts: between the ideal [ Throughout this book “ideal” usually means “in the form of ideas.” –Ed. ] world achieved by the sciences on the one hand and the objects that underlie it on the other. There must be a science that also elucidates the interrelationships here. The ideal and the real world, the polarity of idea and reality, these are the subject of such a science. These opposites must also be known in their interrelationship.

To seek these relationships is the purpose of the following discussion. The existence of science on the one hand, and nature and history on the other are to be brought into a relationship. What significance is there in the mirroring of the outer world in human consciousness; what connection exists between our thinking about the objects of reality and these objects themselves?

[Eugene I]

Steiner has explored that question in depth in multiple books and lectures. For ex., you could check out Goethean Science or The Science of Knowing:

The Task of Science

Ultimately it is true for all science what Goethe expressed so aptly with the words: “In and for itself, theory [ Theorie. In German, this word still connotes more of the sense of the Greek original: what thinking “sees.” –Ed. ] is worth nothing, except insofar as it makes us believe in the interconnections of phenomena.” Through science we are always bringing separate facts of our experience into a connection with each other. In inorganic nature we see causes and effects as separate from each other, and we seek their connections in the appropriate sciences. In the organic world we perceive species and genera of organisms and try to determine their mutual relationships. In history we are confronted with the individual cultural epochs of humanity; we try to recognize the inner dependency of one stage of development upon the other. Thus each science has to work within a particular domain of phenomena in the sense of the Goethean principle articulated above.

Each science has its own area in which it seeks the interconnections of phenomena. But there still remains a great polarity in our scientific efforts: between the ideal [ Throughout this book “ideal” usually means “in the form of ideas.” –Ed. ] world achieved by the sciences on the one hand and the objects that underlie it on the other. There must be a science that also elucidates the interrelationships here. The ideal and the real world, the polarity of idea and reality, these are the subject of such a science. These opposites must also be known in their interrelationship.

To seek these relationships is the purpose of the following discussion. The existence of science on the one hand, and nature and history on the other are to be brought into a relationship. What significance is there in the mirroring of the outer world in human consciousness; what connection exists between our thinking about the objects of reality and these objects themselves?

I don't see any answers to my question here. He re-phrased the same question into "The ideal and the real world, the polarity of idea and reality, these are the subject of such a science.". So how exactly the ideas of physical laws interrelate to the "real world" (and does not it implies a dualistic split between the ideas and "real world" anyway?). And why exactly these particular physical laws exist and not some others? And how these laws were "created", "originated" or "picked" and by whom or by what? I see "there must be a science ...", but where is that science and how exactly it answers these questions? The answer "why is this question important" is not an answer. There is an explanatory gap in the metaphysics of idealism, and this is why this question is important, because any metaphysics and spiritual science, in order to be complete, need to have questions like that answered, otherwise such metaphysics will be left with explanatory gaps. But at least, if a metaphysics does not have all the answers and all knowledge and still has explanatory gaps, it should humbly admit that its knowledge is limited, rather than to say that "there are no limits to our knowledge".

[AshvinP]

Steiner has explored that question in depth in multiple books and lectures. For ex., you could check out Goethean Science or The Science of Knowing:

The Task of Science

Ultimately it is true for all science what Goethe expressed so aptly with the words: “In and for itself, theory [ Theorie. In German, this word still connotes more of the sense of the Greek original: what thinking “sees.” –Ed. ] is worth nothing, except insofar as it makes us believe in the interconnections of phenomena.” Through science we are always bringing separate facts of our experience into a connection with each other. In inorganic nature we see causes and effects as separate from each other, and we seek their connections in the appropriate sciences. In the organic world we perceive species and genera of organisms and try to determine their mutual relationships. In history we are confronted with the individual cultural epochs of humanity; we try to recognize the inner dependency of one stage of development upon the other. Thus each science has to work within a particular domain of phenomena in the sense of the Goethean principle articulated above.

Each science has its own area in which it seeks the interconnections of phenomena. But there still remains a great polarity in our scientific efforts: between the ideal [ Throughout this book “ideal” usually means “in the form of ideas.” –Ed. ] world achieved by the sciences on the one hand and the objects that underlie it on the other. There must be a science that also elucidates the interrelationships here. The ideal and the real world, the polarity of idea and reality, these are the subject of such a science. These opposites must also be known in their interrelationship.

To seek these relationships is the purpose of the following discussion. The existence of science on the one hand, and nature and history on the other are to be brought into a relationship. What significance is there in the mirroring of the outer world in human consciousness; what connection exists between our thinking about the objects of reality and these objects themselves?

I don't see any answers to my question here. He re-phrased the same question into "The ideal and the real world, the polarity of idea and reality, these are the subject of such a science.". So how exactly the ideas of physical laws interrelate to the "real world" (and does not it implies a dualistic split between the ideas and "real world" anyway?). And why exactly these particular physical laws exist and not some others? And how these laws were "created", "originated" or "picked" and by whom or by what? I see "there must be a science ...", but where is that science and how exactly it answers these questions? The answer "why is this question important" is not an answer. There is an explanatory gap in the metaphysics of idealism, and this is why this question is important, because any metaphysics and spiritual science, in order to be complete, need to have questions like that answered, otherwise such metaphysics will be left with explanatory gaps. But at least, if a metaphysics does not have all the answers and all knowledge and still has explanatory gaps, it should humbly admit that its knowledge is limited, rather than to say that "there are no limits to our knowledge".

Eugene - that was an introduction to the book. I provided the link which takes you to the full book, with each chapter linked so you can skip ahead to later sections if you want. You will come across insights about the 'laws of physics' that you had not heard before, but only you can put in that effort if you are serious about the questions and genuinely want answers. Maybe I can post some more relevant excerpts later today.

[Eugene I]

Maybe I can post some more relevant excerpts later today.

yes please