I've never been satisfied with BK's reliance on Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) beyond a narrowly defined proof-of-concept that a mind can dissociate into alters that don't know each other or can act in separation while in the same body. More interesting, I think, is that the general psychological understanding is that DID is caused by some type of trauma. If this is true, then the deeper question at the level of idealism and consciousness becomes, "What is the general trauma that produces dissociation?" Speculatively, perhaps the trauma may be the compaction or compression of consciousness (or spirit) into a corporeal (or material) container. If this is so, the function of psychedelics, depth psychology or introspective spiritual work is to loosen or make porous the adaptations to a trauma. Perhaps, rather than alter-mode being a "reducing valve" from a cosmic chaos, it is the scar tissue or PTSD of the trauma of incarnation into a limited container. This might better explain why so much of the pre-birth state has been blocked from post-birth memory, which would be consistent with the PTSD model of DID. It might also explain why a common religious theme is the escape or liberation from suffering caused by the trauma of separation.
I guess I can imagine there might be some kind of primal 'trauma'/confusion, as a function of dissociation into a subject><object state ~ aka maya ~ with the apparent loss of one's essential unicity as Consciousness. Although, in that case the 'trauma' would be caused by the dissociation, rather than the other way around.
Re: Dissociation -- an alternative model?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:15 pm
by Jim Cross
Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:17 am
I've never been satisfied with BK's reliance on Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) beyond a narrowly defined proof-of-concept that a mind can dissociate into alters that don't know each other or can act in separation while in the same body. More interesting, I think, is that the general psychological understanding is that DID is caused by some type of trauma. If this is true, then the deeper question at the level of idealism and consciousness becomes, "What is the general trauma that produces dissociation?" Speculatively, perhaps the trauma may be the compaction or compression of consciousness (or spirit) into a corporeal (or material) container. If this is so, the function of psychedelics, depth psychology or introspective spiritual work is to loosen or make porous the adaptations to a trauma. Perhaps, rather than alter-mode being a "reducing valve" from a cosmic chaos, it is the scar tissue or PTSD of the trauma of incarnation into a limited container. This might better explain why so much of the pre-birth state has been blocked from post-birth memory, which would be consistent with the PTSD model of DID. It might also explain why a common religious theme is the escape or liberation from suffering caused by the trauma of separation.
Material container? Why would MAL traumatize us? That makes MAL seem like a God who wants to test us deliberately.
But I think you are getting at some of the issues with the DID analogy. Another way to look at it might be that the alter is the way for MAL to become self-aware of itself. It must become limited to become self-aware, to escape an Eternal Now and to exist in Time. Maybe that is good, not bad.
Re: Dissociation -- an alternative model?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:20 pm
by Ratatoskr
Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:17 am
I've never been satisfied with BK's reliance on Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) beyond a narrowly defined proof-of-concept that a mind can dissociate into alters that don't know each other or can act in separation while in the same body. More interesting, I think, is that the general psychological understanding is that DID is caused by some type of trauma. If this is true, then the deeper question at the level of idealism and consciousness becomes, "What is the general trauma that produces dissociation?" Speculatively, perhaps the trauma may be the compaction or compression of consciousness (or spirit) into a corporeal (or material) container. If this is so, the function of psychedelics, depth psychology or introspective spiritual work is to loosen or make porous the adaptations to a trauma. Perhaps, rather than alter-mode being a "reducing valve" from a cosmic chaos, it is the scar tissue or PTSD of the trauma of incarnation into a limited container. This might better explain why so much of the pre-birth state has been blocked from post-birth memory, which would be consistent with the PTSD model of DID. It might also explain why a common religious theme is the escape or liberation from suffering caused by the trauma of separation.
I've never experienced more terror or trauma than realization of eternal aloneness (only comparable to the realization of existing). But that's just personal experience from psychedelic sight-seeing.
Re: Dissociation -- an alternative model?
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:51 pm
by AshvinP
Lou Gold wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:17 am
I've never been satisfied with BK's reliance on Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) beyond a narrowly defined proof-of-concept that a mind can dissociate into alters that don't know each other or can act in separation while in the same body. More interesting, I think, is that the general psychological understanding is that DID is caused by some type of trauma. If this is true, then the deeper question at the level of idealism and consciousness becomes, "What is the general trauma that produces dissociation?" Speculatively, perhaps the trauma may be the compaction or compression of consciousness (or spirit) into a corporeal (or material) container. If this is so, the function of psychedelics, depth psychology or introspective spiritual work is to loosen or make porous the adaptations to a trauma. Perhaps, rather than alter-mode being a "reducing valve" from a cosmic chaos, it is the scar tissue or PTSD of the trauma of incarnation into a limited container. This might better explain why so much of the pre-birth state has been blocked from post-birth memory, which would be consistent with the PTSD model of DID. It might also explain why a common religious theme is the escape or liberation from suffering caused by the trauma of separation.
"Trauma" is not a good word for it because there are disadvantages and advantages to incarnation of Spirit, and "trauma" only emphasizes the former for most readers. But apart from that, I agree all spiritual traditions recognize the traumatic consequences of such a process. Only a few recognize the redemptive value of the process, though, and even fewer take the redemptive value seriously as opposed to only paying it lip service and postulating such value only comes for us in the "hereafter".
Re: Dissociation -- an alternative model?
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:39 am
by Soul_of_Shu
This too seems relevant in that it alludes to the idea of a primal agony of Divine creation ...
Re: Dissociation -- an alternative model?
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:47 am
by Apanthropinist
Ratatoskr wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:20 pm
I've never experienced more terror or trauma than realization of eternal aloneness (only comparable to the realization of existing). But that's just personal experience from psychedelic sight-seeing.
Aren't they the same thing? The terror of eternal aloneness would be the most acute realisation of existing wouldn't it? I experienced this in Iboga once, it was as awesome and beautiful as it was terrifying.
Makes me think of Kastrup's 'Mind At Large' having the realisation of 'I am'......shortly thereafter followed by.....'Oh feck, I am all that is.....'
Re: Dissociation -- an alternative model?
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:42 pm
by Eugene I
Apanthropinist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:47 am
Makes me think of Kastrup's 'Mind At Large' having the realisation of 'I am'......shortly thereafter followed by.....'Oh feck, I am all that is.....'
And also:
"Heck, who am I? How and why do I exist? Why am I aware? Where did I come from? How do I ever find that all out?
Heck, what do I do here? There is nothing here, it's so boring.
Oh, I have an idea! Lets split into alters, fantasize a world, send the alters there and make them think that they are separate beings and the "world" they live in is real. Let them think that they have a purpose in that world. That's going to be fun! At least something better than this lonely emptiness"
Apanthropinist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:47 am
Makes me think of Kastrup's 'Mind At Large' having the realisation of 'I am'......shortly thereafter followed by.....'Oh feck, I am all that is.....'
And also:
"Heck, who am I? How and why do I exist? Why am I aware? Where did I come from? How do I ever find that all out?
Heck, what do I do here? There is nothing here, it's so boring.
Oh, I have an idea! Lets split into alters, fantasize a world, send the alters there and make them think that they are separate beings and the "world" they live in is real. Let them think that they have a purpose in that world. That's going to be fun! At least something better than this lonely emptiness"
Exactly that, Eugene.....then became a Buddhist and got confused "How does that dependent origination work...and what's with all this orange?".....then became a Daoist except not a Daoist because that's naming and just laughed about it all....and then invented cake and everything was OK.
