Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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Eugene I
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

Post by Eugene I »

Ratatoskr wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:48 pm That's a very strange statement. I am not sure I understood it correctly. Are you suggesting that people who do not agree with you/do not see reality (of whichever order) as you do have improper cognitive perception ? In short, people who disagree with you are not developed enough to see the truth ?
That's the foundation of the exclusivist/supremacist Christian epistemology, and it always has been this way and seems that it's not going to change. The truth is assumed upfront with no possibility of any alternative, and the experience of such truth is only available to those who accepted the faith in it and developed the "proper cognition" (according to the recipes of the faith) to understand it. For those who did not accept such faith and did not develop such cognition the truth is unavailable. The only reason people may not accept, or have doubts, or oppose such truth is because their fallen nature corrupts their cognition and blinds them from seeing such truth. There are of course more details to that. For example, the universal integration into such truth is mandatory unavoidable with no alternative choice, meaning one in theory has freedom not to get involved in it, but by the expense of perishing in the "eternal fire".

I mean, as long as these people are happy with that, why not? We are free to believe in whatever we want. As long as they don't start killing those who do not share their faith or do not choose to "integrate" (which actually happened so many times in the history, because for them the "truth" and integration with it is way more important then the lives of the infidels). Having lived in a communist country, I can't help seeing too many parallels, so I simply call it "spiritual Kingdom-of-Heaven communism". And it looks like some active preachers of it decided to hijack the Bernardo's forum by presenting their religious sermons to look like a philosophy.
Last edited by Eugene I on Sun May 02, 2021 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cleric K
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

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Apanthropinist wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:55 pm You are one of the most genius persons I've met for using logical fallacies, it's quite beautiful actually and I commend you for your unwavering commitment and discipline towards it. This latest one here 'Because this is the true meaning of the word since ancient times.' is called Argument From Age or Wisdom of the Ancients, in other words 'Oh well they called it that, so it must be true'....in other words also a Non Sequitur...in other words it does not logically follow that simply because it was called something, it makes it valid. You have to demonstrate what makes it logically valid....in other words it cannot be anything else....but if it is unfalsifiable then you cannot prove that it is something in the first place, let alone something else....so logically, you're buggered, philosophically.
My posts to you point attention to something very concrete. OK, I'll not call it 'spiritual' activity, as this seems to produce sparks. Let's call it thinking activity. The point is that according to direct observation, when we trace the roots of what we call knowing, we reach thinking. Thinking is the activity of knowing. All philosophical or any other judgment is already application of thinking. Subject, object, inner, outer world, mind, matter, etc. - all these are already products of thinking. None of these are given as hard truths of reality. What is given is an amalgamation of perceptions that are being confronted and worked upon by thinking. Only then we begin to recognize the spectrum of perceptions, we sort them into domains, one we call color, other sound, yet others feeling, will, smell, we divide the world into inner and outer, etc. Through thinking we make these distinctions by attaching the corresponding concepts and investigating the relations and interactions. For example if I visually see a pin pressing into my finger I also experience the feeling of pain. I can grasp this relation with thinking as the idea for the connection between sharp objects pressing in my body and pain.

These are only random examples. Since you didn't address the above theme in the previous posts I'm interested what was the reason. It sounds unphilosophical? Illogical? Unfalsifiable?
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Eugene I
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

Post by Eugene I »

Cleric K wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:02 pm It's everyone's experience that in our normal life we have to work hard for every intellectual, artistic and physical skill. I'm sure that in your profession you've met a whole spectrum of people with very different degrees of comprehension on electrical engineering, for example. It's true that some people are more talented than others but most of it is simply hard work. So we understand and accept this for our everyday's life but somehow all this doesn't hold anymore when it's a matter of the deepest mysteries of existence?
What is different for people practicing philosophy, science or engineering is that (most typically) they have a clear understanding that, in spite of their skills and knowledge, their understanding of things may be wrong and the reality may be different from the way they understand, picture or perceive it. The same applies to many spiritual practitioners (including those of non-dual traditions). But for some strange reason, after consistent practice of Christian (and other similar) faith, many people (not all of course fortunately) seem to loose any ability to have such openness to other alternatives and any sense of doubt in the righteousness of their own perception and cognition.

But anyway, it is interesting to watch it and see how the psychology of it works, very illuminating ...
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
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Cleric K
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

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Ratatoskr wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:48 pm That's a very strange statement. I am not sure I understood it correctly. Are you suggesting that people who do not agree with you/do not see reality (of whichever order) as you do have improper cognitive perception ? In short, people who disagree with you are not developed enough to see the truth ?
As I made clear in this post, I don't claim any superiority. People are different, some had chance to try things in life, which others haven't. I'm only sharing the results of one such direction of investigation and also describing the path that leads to these results. It's not my invention, it's something that has been developing for millennia. I'm simply verifying things for myself and sharing the results.

If we take some more familiar fields of knowledge, objection like the quoted wouldn't make much sense. For example, someone who knows nothing of mathematics may say to another "So you claim that people who don't understand math and disagree with the Pythagorean theorem are somehow not developed enough to see its truth?" Hardly anyone in their right mind will make such an objection today. Yet when it comes to the deeper secrets of existence it's somehow assumed that this is completely irrelevant. In other words, its outright dismissed that there may be needed some preparatory work in order to cognize the depths of reality.

Let's leave aside the word 'truth' because it's way too charged. Let's speak simply of facts of experience which can be interrelated and tested against the most various fields of life. All I'm saying is that it's possible to attain to a different kind of cognition, which contains and explains out of itself the intellect and reveals many other details about the deeper spiritual structure of man. Not only that but I also try describe the path and the kind of effort that's needed in order to reach to these perceptions. What precisely is so outrageous here? The fact that the attainment to these higher cognitive experiences requires certain exertion of the will? Or the claim that the observations thus attained have relevance to our life and explain the deeper causes for the desperate state of humanity today?
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Ratatoskr
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

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Eugene I wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:25 pm
Ratatoskr wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:48 pm That's a very strange statement. I am not sure I understood it correctly. Are you suggesting that people who do not agree with you/do not see reality (of whichever order) as you do have improper cognitive perception ? In short, people who disagree with you are not developed enough to see the truth ?
That's the foundation of the exclusivist/supremacist Christian epistemology, and it always has been this way and seems that it's not going to change. The truth is assumed upfront with no possibility of any alternative, and the experience of such truth is only available to those who accepted the faith in it and developed the "proper cognition" (according to the recipes of the faith) to understand it. For those who did not accept such faith and did not develop such cognition the truth is unavailable. The only reason people may not accept, or have doubts, or oppose such truth is because their fallen nature corrupts their cognition and blinds them from seeing such truth. There are of course more details to that. For example, the universal integration into such truth is mandatory unavoidable with no alternative choice, meaning one in theory has freedom not to get involved in it, but by the expense of perishing in the "eternal fire".

I mean, as long as these people are happy with that, why not? We are free to believe in whatever we want. As long as they don't start killing those who do not share their faith or do not choose to "integrate" (which actually happened so many times in the history, because for them the "truth" and integration with it is way more important then the lives of the infidels). Having lived in a communist country, I can't help seeing too many parallels, so I simply call it "spiritual Kingdom-of-Heaven communism". And it looks like some active preachers of it decided to hijack the Bernardo's forum by presenting their religious sermons to look like a philosophy.
Interesting. I always thought that the essence of Christianity was : "(...) unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." But maybe that's just my improper cognitive perception.
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Ratatoskr
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

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Cleric K wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:27 pm
Ratatoskr wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:48 pm That's a very strange statement. I am not sure I understood it correctly. Are you suggesting that people who do not agree with you/do not see reality (of whichever order) as you do have improper cognitive perception ? In short, people who disagree with you are not developed enough to see the truth ?
As I made clear in this post, I don't claim any superiority. People are different, some had chance to try things in life, which others haven't. I'm only sharing the results of one such direction of investigation and also describing the path that leads to these results. It's not my invention, it's something that has been developing for millennia. I'm simply verifying things for myself and sharing the results.

If we take some more familiar fields of knowledge, objection like the quoted wouldn't make much sense. For example, someone who knows nothing of mathematics may say to another "So you claim that people who don't understand math and disagree with the Pythagorean theorem are somehow not developed enough to see its truth?" Hardly anyone in their right mind will make such an objection today. Yet when it comes to the deeper secrets of existence it's somehow assumed that this is completely irrelevant. In other words, its outright dismissed that there may be needed some preparatory work in order to cognize the depths of reality.

Let's leave aside the word 'truth' because it's way too charged. Let's speak simply of facts of experience which can be interrelated and tested against the most various fields of life. All I'm saying is that it's possible to attain to a different kind of cognition, which contains and explains out of itself the intellect and reveals many other details about the deeper spiritual structure of man. Not only that but I also try describe the path and the kind of effort that's needed in order to reach to these perceptions. What precisely is so outrageous here? The fact that the attainment to these higher cognitive experiences requires certain exertion of the will? Or the claim that the observations thus attained have relevance to our life and explain the deeper causes for the desperate state of humanity today ?
Nothing is outrageous. I simply asked for clarification in case I misunderstood you.

What is difficult to digest is that it seems that you consider other people's experiences of higher order realities (which doesn't resemble anthroposophical model) as "flaws on the mirror" which need to be removed in order for an individual to properly cognize the correct model of "spiritual structure of man".
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AshvinP
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

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Ratatoskr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:09 am
Cleric K wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:27 pm
Ratatoskr wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:48 pm That's a very strange statement. I am not sure I understood it correctly. Are you suggesting that people who do not agree with you/do not see reality (of whichever order) as you do have improper cognitive perception ? In short, people who disagree with you are not developed enough to see the truth ?
As I made clear in this post, I don't claim any superiority. People are different, some had chance to try things in life, which others haven't. I'm only sharing the results of one such direction of investigation and also describing the path that leads to these results. It's not my invention, it's something that has been developing for millennia. I'm simply verifying things for myself and sharing the results.

If we take some more familiar fields of knowledge, objection like the quoted wouldn't make much sense. For example, someone who knows nothing of mathematics may say to another "So you claim that people who don't understand math and disagree with the Pythagorean theorem are somehow not developed enough to see its truth?" Hardly anyone in their right mind will make such an objection today. Yet when it comes to the deeper secrets of existence it's somehow assumed that this is completely irrelevant. In other words, its outright dismissed that there may be needed some preparatory work in order to cognize the depths of reality.

Let's leave aside the word 'truth' because it's way too charged. Let's speak simply of facts of experience which can be interrelated and tested against the most various fields of life. All I'm saying is that it's possible to attain to a different kind of cognition, which contains and explains out of itself the intellect and reveals many other details about the deeper spiritual structure of man. Not only that but I also try describe the path and the kind of effort that's needed in order to reach to these perceptions. What precisely is so outrageous here? The fact that the attainment to these higher cognitive experiences requires certain exertion of the will? Or the claim that the observations thus attained have relevance to our life and explain the deeper causes for the desperate state of humanity today ?
.

Nothing is outrageous. I simply asked for clarification in case I misunderstood you.

What is difficult to digest is that it seems that you consider other people's experiences of higher order realities (which doesn't resemble anthroposophical model) as "flaws on the mirror" which need to be removed in order for an individual to properly cognize the correct model of "spiritual structure of man".
I am not saying this to gloat or claim some kind of special insight, but I find it fascinating that many of the comments here have been quintessential examples of what I was trying to highlight as the "bad habit" which needs desperately to be broken right now. It is precisely the habit of thinking the realm of mind i.e. psyche i.e. "Spirit" is some free-for-all purely "subjective" realm where any opinion goes and any claim to "objective" truth should be met with contempt. Not only is that fundamentally dualist thinking, it serves to undermine personal responsibility and support apathetic ethical relativism. What's even more fascinating is the inability of those engaging in such tactics to realize they are doing so even when it is pointed out on many different occasions in many different ways.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
Apanthropinist
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

Post by Apanthropinist »

Cleric K wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:41 pm My posts to you point attention to something very concrete.
I would agree, they contain a lot of fallacies. You must address the fallacies before we can go anywhere because all an argument needs to fail is one bad premise. No one needs to do anything else after that. The burden is yours as it is you who have made the claim and must either defend it or abandon it. A false premise exposes an unsound argument.
Cleric K wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:41 pm OK, I'll not call it 'spiritual' activity, as this seems to produce sparks.
You don't know what it produces in me, you are assuming it must be because I have challenged it. This is philosophy, it doesn't matter whether I have sparks or lightning bolts or fits of weeping. It's about argument. So it would be wise for you to abandon implied attempts at Psychogenic Fallacy (If you learn the psychological reason why your opponent likes/dislikes an argument, then he's biased, so his argument must be wrong. It is irrelevant.).

You must also define your terms clearly and stick to them, your terms must be valid. You simply cannot change the words to suit what you want, "OK, I'll call it something else." because then it is something else. What you must not do is equivocate. Your term must mean what it means, not mean something else. You must demonstrate why it means what it means and cannot mean something else.

It may be annoying but those are the rules and methods of philosophy. If you wish for your argument to succeed then you must apply and follow them.

So perhaps if you tidy up your essay, define your terms properly first and then do all the other necessary things to ensure your argument ends up with valid premises and a conclusion that follows, then you may have a valid and sound argument. One of the best ways to do that is to stand back from your opinion, try to disinvest yourself, and become your own worst opponent and see where you can attack your premises and the logic of your argument. Mercilessly.

What you cannot do, if you wish to succeed, is insist that people see it your way or that there is something faulty with people's view or their understanding. It's irrelevant, a valid and sound argument succeeds in its own right. What is important about a sound argument is that you have no choice but to agree with it. Sound arguments put an end to all possible debate and discussion. They are the ultimate debate-stoppers.

Then you can move forward. Rather than going round in circles as is happening presently.
'Education is the kindling of a flame, not the filling of a vessel''
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

Post by Apanthropinist »

AshvinP wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:30 am
Ratatoskr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:09 am
Cleric K wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:27 pm
As I made clear in this post, I don't claim any superiority. People are different, some had chance to try things in life, which others haven't. I'm only sharing the results of one such direction of investigation and also describing the path that leads to these results. It's not my invention, it's something that has been developing for millennia. I'm simply verifying things for myself and sharing the results.

If we take some more familiar fields of knowledge, objection like the quoted wouldn't make much sense. For example, someone who knows nothing of mathematics may say to another "So you claim that people who don't understand math and disagree with the Pythagorean theorem are somehow not developed enough to see its truth?" Hardly anyone in their right mind will make such an objection today. Yet when it comes to the deeper secrets of existence it's somehow assumed that this is completely irrelevant. In other words, its outright dismissed that there may be needed some preparatory work in order to cognize the depths of reality.

Let's leave aside the word 'truth' because it's way too charged. Let's speak simply of facts of experience which can be interrelated and tested against the most various fields of life. All I'm saying is that it's possible to attain to a different kind of cognition, which contains and explains out of itself the intellect and reveals many other details about the deeper spiritual structure of man. Not only that but I also try describe the path and the kind of effort that's needed in order to reach to these perceptions. What precisely is so outrageous here? The fact that the attainment to these higher cognitive experiences requires certain exertion of the will? Or the claim that the observations thus attained have relevance to our life and explain the deeper causes for the desperate state of humanity today ?
.

Nothing is outrageous. I simply asked for clarification in case I misunderstood you.

What is difficult to digest is that it seems that you consider other people's experiences of higher order realities (which doesn't resemble anthroposophical model) as "flaws on the mirror" which need to be removed in order for an individual to properly cognize the correct model of "spiritual structure of man".
I am not saying this to gloat or claim some kind of special insight, but I find it fascinating that many of the comments here have been quintessential examples of what I was trying to highlight as the "bad habit" which needs desperately to be broken right now. It is precisely the habit of thinking the realm of mind i.e. psyche i.e. "Spirit" is some free-for-all purely "subjective" realm where any opinion goes and any claim to "objective" truth should be met with contempt. Not only is that fundamentally dualist thinking, it serves to undermine personal responsibility and support apathetic ethical relativism. What's even more fascinating is the inability of those engaging in such tactics to realize they are doing so even when it is pointed out on many different occasions in many different ways.
This is also a Psychogenic Fallacy (If you learn the psychological reason why your opponent likes/dislikes an argument, then he's biased, so his argument must be wrong. It is irrelevant.).

(Actually also Argument By Emotive Language (Appeal To The People) Using emotionally loaded words.)

(...and also Argument From Adverse Consequences (Appeal To Fear, Scare Tactics) Saying an opponent must be wrong, because if he is right, then bad things would ensue.)

Bad habits/good habits do not and cannot support nor falsify arguments, they are irrelevant. Bad/good premises, faulty/valid logic and sound/unsound arguments are the only things that will do the trick.
'Education is the kindling of a flame, not the filling of a vessel''
Socrates
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Cleric K
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Breaking Bad Habits

Post by Cleric K »

Ratatoskr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:04 am Interesting. I always thought that the essence of Christianity was : "(...) unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." But maybe that's just my improper cognitive perception.
When taken in isolation, it's common to project interpretations to words that best suit our own inclinations. A very sweet tasting interpretation of the above is that the Christ was suggesting we should be ignorant as children, mood-swinging, erratic, carefree and occupied entirely with play. The scriptures only make sense if we can encompass them as something whole. Otherwise what do we do with other verses such as "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect"? Was the Christ contradicting himself? Or there are other qualities of a child which he was referring to? If we consider the purity of a child, innocence, openness, eagerness to learn and develop, humility and reverence towards what's wiser and more loving than it, we arrive at something which is in complete harmony, and is actually the prerequisite, for entering the Kingdom of Heaven and its coming to Earth.
Ratatoskr wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:09 am What is difficult to digest is that it seems that you consider other people's experiences of higher order realities (which doesn't resemble anthroposophical model) as "flaws on the mirror" which need to be removed in order for an individual to properly cognize the correct model of "spiritual structure of man".
Let's consider something more concrete in order not to be lost in generalities. The concept for the soul organs (the so called chakras) is known from the most ancient times. It has been largely lost for a long time but it's now reemerging. Unfortunately most of what we find in popular literature today (primarily New Age-like materials) is quite abstract. The organs are described as colorful blobs along the length of the body, some characteristics are given but all this remains very abstract. In the very similar way Astrology has become something utterly abstract. It's spoken about planets, constellations and their influence on soul life but there's no clear experience how exactly is this possible.

Real experience of the soul organs has little to do with pleasantly felt blobs of light along the spine. As long as the soul organs are thought of as something that influences us in some unknown way, similar to planets and constellations, we have only very dim intellectual notion of them. We approach real understanding of the organs when we can attain to proper inner perception of the way our spiritual, cognitive activity is being shaped and restricted by our organization. For example, as long as our head organ is not tuned we are lost in dual reflections that we grasp intellectually. When the larynx organ is tuned our whole thinking life becomes a panoramic experience of the way our spiritual activity works through the hierarchy of concepts on the world of perceptions. When the workings of the heart organ are tuned a whole domain opens up which relates us with the soul world. Our living relations with family, friends, the social organism and higher beings is unveiled.

This is not some simple linear progression. It's because of the limitations of language that we have no choice but describe things sequentially. These organs work together at all times, as if one within the other. Like strings of a musical instrument they must be attuned and brought into harmony from within. This is a never ending process achieved only gradually. The more we do this, the more our inner life expands as if in a completely new dimension, a new axis of depth of consciousness. If the message in the essay in the beginning of this thread is grasped, one can already get some intuition about the direction of this axis. In what is considered 'normal' inner life of today, we're practically being tossed and thrown around by the events of the sensory world. Our soul life is to a large extent simply a semi-automatic reaction to the sensory flow. How many people today can concentrate their thinking on a single image and quietly hold on in perfect stillness for at least a minute? It's not that this is so hard - it's simply not being sought after. Our external civilization values other things much more highly. Riding a bicycle is also something that may look impossible initially, yet we have motivation to learn that skill and we keep exerting effort until we succeed.

Through inner transformation, our soul life metamorphoses from erratic buzzing of thought, tossed around by perceptions and ripped apart by conflicting desires, into an orderly hierarchical spiritual organism where personal, social and Cosmic spiritual life flow together.

I would agree with the accusations of superiority if the schools of higher development were saying "We are God-chosen, we have the power, we hold the truth, you should believe it and obey it." But there's nothing of this sort today (please don't bring dark ages Christianity into the picture). What we are speaking here is something the logic of which can be perfectly well understood by unprejudiced thinking. Not only that but methods are freely given for the tuning and development of our inner nature. The logic of these methods can also be perfectly well understood by thinking even before attempting them.

Why are things like the above seen as totalitarian, demeaning, offending? Isn't it completely obvious that man's disorderly life is at the root of all suffering? He has found how to satisfy the tastes of the physical body to excess but has never cared to learn what kind of nourishment the soul and the spirit require. While man is preoccupied with his physical pleasures, his soul and spirit are deprived, hungry, thirsty, ripped apart by foreign forces. Man is not only a body with flat mind. His being is much deeper and in direct interrelation with the forces of the Cosmos. We need to get to work and refine, tune, perfect this deep structure because all problems stem from the fact that man is a slave to the unknown, contradictory and often hostile forces within his depths. If things like these are rejected, seen as offending, it's only because one still clings to the utopian dream that everything will be fine if they simply follow their desires in peace. And what have been people doing for so many thousands of years? Haven't they done exactly that - allowing free reign of their desires without any question for their origins?

Things are very simple actually. They are as simple as the fact that obesity is overcome through proper nutrition and exercise. Things become difficult and complicated only when people want to eat to excess and lay around all day, while staying fit and healthy. As trivial as it seems, it's the actual state of affairs of humanity. People don't want to question, let alone sacrifice, their destructive habits. They want to keep them and this forces them to project the blame for the pity state of humanity to all kinds of external causes. This forces them to search for philosophies (and there's no shortage of them) that lull them to sleep and explain how one can do whatever they want, how the truth is whatever one wants it to be and so on. In other words they offer the next sweet tasting pill for losing weight, the next hi-tech exercise belt that is supposed to melt away the fat around the waist while we watch TV and so on.
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