Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

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Eugene I
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

Post by Eugene I »

AshvinP wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 am Why is it that the spiritual realm cannot contain verifiable and reproducible facts unlike the 'physical' realm? Is there any reason apart from our simple assertion that this is the way it must be? Keeping in mind, we cannot appeal to difference of opinion/interpretation of spiritual facts because that happens plenty in all mainstream scientific fields studying the 'physical' realm as well. Neither can we appeal to past ignorance of the spiritual facts because that is equally if not more true of mainstream 'physical' science which only picked up in the last 500 years.
Because we do have an enormous amount of data about the astral realm from yogi and Buddhist meditation evidences, from visions of mystics of all spiritual traditions, from NDE, OBE, regression therapy, psychics etc etc, and they typically non reproducible and contradict each other. To me such contradiction is not an evidence that they are wrong or illusory, but rather an evidence that the astral realm is very flexible and fluid with a lack of solid and reproducible structures, and that is too confirmed by most of those evidences and accounts. Natural science relies on the facts that are reproducible and independent on the observers circumstances. If you can show me the same spiritual realm fact confirmed by multiple people belonging to different cultures and religious backgrounds (if any), then we can reconsider.

The link I posted above to the NDE account is an example of this: it presents a very different perspective on the purpose of our incarnations on Earth. But of course you discard it because it does not align with your views. So we are here facing a "bias" problem: in this spiritual science you only accept facts that align with your paradigm and disregard the facts (as illusions, hallucinations or wrong interpretations) that do not align with your paradigm. But this is not how science works. But in reality both views may be equally right: some souls indeed come to Earth to pursue the "cognitive metamorphosis" just like you described, and other souls may come to Earth to experience limited forms of existence like the NDE account suggested, and yet other souls may come for entirely different purposes.

Many NDE accounts suggest that in the discarnate realm there are many "interest groups" that have different views on reality and different life goals and values. There indeed may be a group of souls that incarnate on Earth to go through the thinking metamorphosis process, and what you are writing in your essays may be entirely applicable to such group. But there are many other groups incarnating into humans and having the same body-mind structures but actually perusing very different goals and having very different interests and views. this is why some people strongly resonate to some religions, values or views (say, to Christianity), and other people resonate to very different ones - that is simply because they belong to different "interest groups" and they intuitively know their goals and values and resonate with religions of philosophies that align with them.
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

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Eugene I wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:17 pm
AshvinP wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:18 am Why is it that the spiritual realm cannot contain verifiable and reproducible facts unlike the 'physical' realm? Is there any reason apart from our simple assertion that this is the way it must be? Keeping in mind, we cannot appeal to difference of opinion/interpretation of spiritual facts because that happens plenty in all mainstream scientific fields studying the 'physical' realm as well. Neither can we appeal to past ignorance of the spiritual facts because that is equally if not more true of mainstream 'physical' science which only picked up in the last 500 years.
Because we do have an enormous amount of data about the astral realm from yogi and Buddhist meditation evidences, from visions of mystics of all spiritual traditions, from NDE, OBE, regression therapy, psychics etc etc, and they typically non reproducible and contradict each other. To me such contradiction is not an evidence that they are wrong or illusory, but rather an evidence that the astral realm is very flexible and fluid with a lack of solid and reproducible structures, and that is too confirmed by most of those evidences and accounts. Natural science relies on the facts that are reproducible and independent on the observers circumstances. If you can show me the same spiritual realm fact confirmed by multiple people belonging to different cultures and religious backgrounds (if any), then we can reconsider.

The link I posted above to the NDE account is an example of this: it presents a very different perspective on the purpose of our incarnations on Earth. But of course you discard it because it does not align with your views. So we are here facing a "bias" problem: in this spiritual science you only accept facts that align with your paradigm and disregard the facts (as illusions, hallucinations or wrong interpretations) that do not align with your paradigm. But this is not how science works. But in reality both views may be equally right: some souls indeed come to Earth to pursue the "cognitive metamorphosis" just like you described, and other souls may come to Earth to experience limited forms of existence like the NDE account suggested, and yet other souls may come for entirely different purposes.

Many NDE accounts suggest that in the discarnate realm there are many "interest groups" that have different views on reality and different life goals and values. There indeed may be a group of souls that incarnate on Earth to go through the thinking metamorphosis process, and what you are writing in your essays may be entirely applicable to such group. But there are many other groups incarnating into humans and having the same body-mind structures but actually perusing very different goals and having very different interests and views. this is why some people strongly resonate to some religions, values or views (say, to Christianity), and other people resonate to very different ones - that is simply because they belong to different "interest groups" and they intuitively know their goals and values and resonate with religions of philosophies that align with them.
Eugene,

I think you are mixing up spiritual "facts" with spiritual "conclusions". The NDE account you linked seems to contain both. I am not ruling out the possibility that the observations in the account are accurate. If the conclusion from those facts, however, is that we all find knowledge of higher worlds through fundamentally different methods, and therefore it makes little sense to speak of one over the others, then I must be skeptical of the account because it does not fit in with anything I know or have deeply contemplated so far (still with abstract intellect, which I realize is not sufficient).

You may have noticed I do not argue for any specific spiritual facts from Anthroposophy, for ex. from Steiner's Knowledge of Higher Worlds and Their Attainment, because I have not yet experienced them so it is a rather hollow endeavor. I do not make any claims about the nature or experience of the astral realm for the same reason. What I am simply trying to establish in these essays is that such an endeavor is possible and it is the most useful pursuit right now. I do not see any other way humanity can avoid the nihilistic divides we have discussed.

Cleric, on the other hand, has written several posts re: spiritual facts he has experienced and I am always amazed at how well what he relays is consistent with and makes higher sense of the constellation of ideal content which I have so far experienced and woven together by Reason. That is true of every single post. And it seems you actually agree because you usually response with agreement to those posts, and simply caveat that you don't want to acknowledge it is the only productive path out there.

Fair enough, but I am still not clear, according to you, how we should go about writing our essays/posts in a manner which prevents you from feeling the need to push back and sprinkle in those caveats all the time? I am not being coy with that question, because I genuinely want to know if there is something which comes off as moralistic "preaching" in the essays. However, if your advice is not to write anything at all about Christianity, then obviously I cannot take it.
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

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AshvinP wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:45 pm Fair enough, but I am still not clear, according to you, how we should go about writing our essays/posts in a manner which prevents you from feeling the need to push back and sprinkle in those caveats all the time? I am not being coy with that question, because I genuinely want to know if there is something which comes off as moralistic "preaching" in the essays. However, if your advice is not to write anything at all about Christianity, then obviously I cannot take it.
Oh, I have nothing against Christianity and against spiritual science in general, or against quoting the scriptures (I apologize for my previous objections against it). But as I said, it is the universalistic claims of your position and Christianity in general that I keep challenging. For example, in your above post:
"What I am simply trying to establish in these essays is that such an endeavor is possible and it is the most useful pursuit right now. I do not see any other way humanity can avoid the nihilistic divides we have discussed."
Yes, such endeavor is definitely possible and useful, no question about that. But you stretch further and claim that it is "the most useful pursuit right now" and "I do not see any other way humanity can avoid the nihilistic divides". In fact there are many other useful pursuits in philosophy, spiritual paradigms and practices, arts and sciences. Non-dual teachings and traditions, indigenous traditions, New Age, many other variants of idealistic metaphysics, natural sciences extending to consciousness, NDE, reincarnation and paranormal studies etc are all useful pursuits that many people are doing right now, and all of them address the nihilistic divides in various ways, just like the spiritual science does.
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

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Simon Adams wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:46 am
AshvinP wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:40 am
You are providing me another apologetic for a doctrine which I claim is nowhere to be found in scripture and is a result of flawed dualist thinking. Under the monist metamorphic view, such a question does not even arise because we are not other than God and we are truly bringing self-aware intent into the world-evolving process which was not there before. We do not fall into conundrums such as predestined-foreknown camps of humanity consigned to damnation by a loving God.
Forgive me for being blunt, but I think you a completely missing the difference between our relationship to time and god’s perspective from outside of time. You are not the only one to do this, for some reason people don’t seem to be able to imagine a perspective of being outside time and having knowledge of all time.

Also, to say it’s not found in scripture is strange as it seems very clear to me. For example this clear case from Paul, Romans 8:28–30:
We know that in everything God works for good with [bold] those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son[/bold], in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Ashvin wrote:That being said, I still find your apologetic wanting - any sort of predestination undermines free choice as in meaningful choice. If a political election is rigged so that my candidate cannot possibly win under any circumstances, my vote is meaningless.
No that’s a complete misunderstanding. ‘Knowledge of’ is not the same as influencing. You know that Biden won the last election, does that mean you caused him to win?
Yes but the precise claim of Aquinas' was that another science can be developed under the Spirit's illumination via Reason, i.e. spiritual science. Even if you disagree with Steiner's version, do you agree that such a thing is possible?
One thing to remember is that Aquinas had a different view of what science means than we do, it’s about knowledge that can be established from ‘the causes’, as opposed to speculation. This is different from todays meaning, which is in theory more about repeatable empirical evidence. You could argue that our version of science is a much narrower definition, but interestingly much of what happens in modern physics would probably fall outside of Aquinas’s definition of science. It would fall under “doxa” instead.

I should say that there is a part of me that fully supports your intention here, as my default response is always about what I disagree with. The way our academics and our culture have hived off stuff “we know” through science from stuff we experience “subjectively”, and treated the latter as inferior, is harmful bullshit.

Nonetheless l’m also a realist. We have evolved a huge range of disciples over the past few centuries, and each of them have developed their own partial but sophisticated framework, with their own rules for discerning validity. With the “hard” sciences, there are big areas of overlap where you can match the ‘knowledge’ in one area with the ‘knowledge’ in another.

However even in those areas it still reveals how very primitive our knowledge is. For example, biologists talk about photosynthesis, the basic function without which there would be no life. They have a very detailed story from chemistry about how the sun, water and carbon dioxide capture energy from the sun to produce proteins. But ask three physicists about what is happening and each of them will probably give you a different answer, as they just don’t know how the knowledge from biology and the knowledge from chemistry are working together.

When you then add areas like psychology, sociology, history etc into the mix, this problem is magnified exponentially. Add art, literature, poetry, and it’s exponential on top of exponential. The different ways of knowing by then have such different perspectives, and such different ways of discerning value from not value, that you would need to have specialist subjects about how to correspond the knowledge from each discipline to each other discipline. That would be an extremely messy process, and would by almost certainly be wrong most of the time.
Simon - thanks for your detailed response. With regards to doctrine of "predestination", I am still not convinced it is found in scripture. We are definitely venturing outside of the purpose of the essays, which is really about focusing on our own inward experience rather than ancient texts, but I will also take blame for putting us on this path. And I don't want to leave you hanging on my response. I take the passage you quoted to be in the context of what some may call "universalism", which I take to mean no one is predestined to damnation. That is the thrust of what Paul is writing to a non-Jewish audience. We see that in the verses that follow:

"What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"
(Romans 8:31-35)

re: Aquinas and science - I do not agree he was referring to a fundamentally different approach to science than we have today. Again, Goethe was a great example of someone who pursued science in the illumination of the Spirit. I may return to this later, but I know Cleric and I have already quoted passages from Steiner's Goethean Science to illustrate the point and you were not convinced, so I am not sure what else I can possibly say about it that is more convincing.
For me this is the biggest problem with your approach. We could speak to a Freudian, a Jungian, an atheist, a Jew, a Hindi and a Buddhist about physics, and we all would know the ground rules. Each of these could be scientists working on the same area, and each would value each others work and opinion. Each of them may have a different conclusion about what the results mean in a wider context, and I agree that this Kantian separation between the empirical results and the wider implications is damaging. The lack of any ontology being applied naturally results in an assumption of the lowest common denominator ontology - physicalism. Of course that’s not the case for many individuals working in science, as they have their own grand narrative of which their work is just a part.

To me the answer is not to try to change the definition of science. As Einstein remarked, the increasing specialisation in science is too far gone to expect anyone to retain the broad horizon of knowledge. Even a polymath has to at some point accept a high level summary from the specialists. Instead the answer must be to challenge the assumed ontology of physicalism, and I think there is hope in this area. That way we have a better chance of the high level summaries having more informed metaphysical assumptions, and we have a better chance of fitting the different high level jigsaw pieces together.
Yes I agree challenging the assumed ontology is very important, which has been my primary focus so far. But we cannot simply say the physicalist ontology needs to go and leave it there. Essentially I am arguing that the monist-idealist assumption allows a shift in perspective which can open up many more empirical tools for scientific investigation which were simply ruled out before. I am not saying we need to "change the definition of science", but rather our definition of science has been self-limited by the flawed ontologies and it appears to me many idealists who agree nevertheless default into that same self-limited paradigm when pushed on what is actually possible from empirical scientific inquiry.
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

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Eugene I wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:07 pm
AshvinP wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:45 pm Fair enough, but I am still not clear, according to you, how we should go about writing our essays/posts in a manner which prevents you from feeling the need to push back and sprinkle in those caveats all the time? I am not being coy with that question, because I genuinely want to know if there is something which comes off as moralistic "preaching" in the essays. However, if your advice is not to write anything at all about Christianity, then obviously I cannot take it.
Oh, I have nothing against Christianity and against spiritual science in general, or against quoting the scriptures (I apologize for my previous objections against it). But as I said, it is the universalistic claims of your position and Christianity in general that I keep challenging. For example, in your above post:
"What I am simply trying to establish in these essays is that such an endeavor is possible and it is the most useful pursuit right now. I do not see any other way humanity can avoid the nihilistic divides we have discussed."
Yes, such endeavor is definitely possible and useful, no question about that. But you stretch further and claim that it is "the most useful pursuit right now" and "I do not see any other way humanity can avoid the nihilistic divides". In fact there are many other useful pursuits in philosophy, spiritual paradigms and practices, arts and sciences. Non-dual teachings and traditions, indigenous traditions, New Age, many other variants of idealistic metaphysics, natural sciences extending to consciousness, NDE, reincarnation and paranormal studies etc are all useful pursuits that many people are doing right now, and all of them address the nihilistic divides in various ways, just like the spiritual science does.
Well that is what I am disputing - that they are equally useful. If we leave everything in out of a sense of "fairness" or "equality", then we end up with nothing. In that case, there is no warrant for me to suggest to the anti-natalist that he needs to consider my path over his. Although I view the major spiritual traditions as compatible through the metamorphic process, there are some paths which are mutually exclusive. A path which rejects the possibility of higher cognition is not compatible with one which stresses its importance, for ex. I get the feeling you agree but are simply trying to expand the 'boundary' of what is useful to include more approaches you personally find helpful, but eventually you must specify a boundary just as I must.
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

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Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:11 am
AshvinP wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:40 pm
Eugene I wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:01 pm
There may be many possible perspective on this topic of dissociation-reunion, neither of which may be entirely correct, and all of which may be partially true. But another perspective (supported by many NDE accounts) is that it has nothing to do with any "fall", of being "worthy" or "not worthy". Dissociation and incarnation is a way for the MAL to explore the reality of its own consciousness from many possible perspectives, both expanded/integrated and contracted/fragmented. Neither of them are "truer" than any others, "higher" or "lower", they are all valuable experiences and ways to explore the infinite space of conscious states and ideas. But dissociated and fragmented states typically involve confusion, memory loss and suffering, and when alters live through their fragmented phases, they suffer, get confused and seek the ways back into integration, and this is completely natural and expected. Yet, the telos of this whole adventure might not not be specifically to integrate from fragmentation, but actually to experience the fragmentation in order to perceive the reality from different perspectives, and then integrate those perspectives into the wholeness of the MAL knowledge, including the experiential knowledge about the aspects of the reality of consciousness that MAL can not experience in the integrated state. Here is an interesting NDE account about this":
If such were the case, i.e. all equally valid perspectives simply being explored and then integrated or not as the case may be for each localized consciousness, then we would also have to admit our speculation here is a complete waste of time. It also seems to me your bolded statement is at odds with the earlier points in the comment. If integration is not "higher" than non-integration, then we have no reason to say anyone should be striving towards integration. Moreover, we have no answer to the question of evil and suffering, because we are claiming the integration which relieves such evil and suffering is no more desirable than the fragmented perspective which necessitates it.
Here let's revert to the whirlpool metaphor, as limited as it may be. Imagine being a stream, the immanent nature of which is to eventually create and experience whirlpoolness, and while that is occurring then that is what some focus of attention revolves around. However, as the stream ceases creating and experiencing one ephemeral instance of whirlpoolness, it reverts to carrying on without that particular focus, while not precluding others. So in that sense there is no longer thinking in terms of disunion><reunion but more like diversion><reversion, with the realization being that all modes are integral.
I am not really following your metaphor here. What are the "modes" we are discussing? It seems to me like we are reverting to Flat MAL (as opposed to Deep MAL) with the whirlpool imagery.
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

Post by Eugene I »

AshvinP wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:43 pm
Eugene I wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:07 pm
AshvinP wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:45 pm Fair enough, but I am still not clear, according to you, how we should go about writing our essays/posts in a manner which prevents you from feeling the need to push back and sprinkle in those caveats all the time? I am not being coy with that question, because I genuinely want to know if there is something which comes off as moralistic "preaching" in the essays. However, if your advice is not to write anything at all about Christianity, then obviously I cannot take it.
Oh, I have nothing against Christianity and against spiritual science in general, or against quoting the scriptures (I apologize for my previous objections against it). But as I said, it is the universalistic claims of your position and Christianity in general that I keep challenging. For example, in your above post:
"What I am simply trying to establish in these essays is that such an endeavor is possible and it is the most useful pursuit right now. I do not see any other way humanity can avoid the nihilistic divides we have discussed."
Yes, such endeavor is definitely possible and useful, no question about that. But you stretch further and claim that it is "the most useful pursuit right now" and "I do not see any other way humanity can avoid the nihilistic divides". In fact there are many other useful pursuits in philosophy, spiritual paradigms and practices, arts and sciences. Non-dual teachings and traditions, indigenous traditions, New Age, many other variants of idealistic metaphysics, natural sciences extending to consciousness, NDE, reincarnation and paranormal studies etc are all useful pursuits that many people are doing right now, and all of them address the nihilistic divides in various ways, just like the spiritual science does.
Well that is what I am disputing - that they are equally useful. If we leave everything in out of a sense of "fairness" or "equality", then we end up with nothing. In that case, there is no warrant for me to suggest to the anti-natalist that he needs to consider my path over his. Although I view the major spiritual traditions as compatible through the metamorphic process, there are some paths which are mutually exclusive. A path which rejects the possibility of higher cognition is not compatible with one which stresses its importance, for ex. I get the feeling you agree but are simply trying to expand the 'boundary' of what is useful to include more approaches you personally find helpful, but eventually you must specify a boundary just as I must.
As I said above, we are not "slaves chained to the same boat", we are representatives of different soul groups or often independent souls incarnated on Earth for different purposes. For the group you belong to, the spiritual science may indeed be the most useful approach, but for other souls perusing different goals the most useful approach may be quite different.

But in a any case, most spiritual traditions I'm aware of never reject the possibility and usefulness of higher cognition, in fact most of them involve developing it in different ways and different directions, but not necessarily stating that such development is their main goal. In many cases such development is just a natural outcome of following those paths. The realm of higher cognition is quite broad and includes not only intellectual, but many other subtle facets like aesthetic, non-dual, intuitive, ethical, subtle-emotional and many others that we do not even know about. Different paths place emphasis on different areas of higher cognition.
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

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AshvinP wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:03 pmI am not really following your metaphor here. What are the "modes" we are discussing? It seems to me like we are reverting to Flat MAL (as opposed to Deep MAL) with the whirlpool imagery.
The 'modes' would be any modality in which M@L is experiencing its ideation as a subjectified locus of Consciousness. So it could be in a cognitively more 'refined' transcorporeal way, i.e. beyond this corporeal idea construct, compatible with Cleric's model.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

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Eugene I wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:17 pm Because we do have an enormous amount of data about the astral realm from yogi and Buddhist meditation evidences, from visions of mystics of all spiritual traditions, from NDE, OBE, regression therapy, psychics etc etc, and they typically non reproducible and contradict each other. To me such contradiction is not an evidence that they are wrong or illusory, but rather an evidence that the astral realm is very flexible and fluid with a lack of solid and reproducible structures, and that is too confirmed by most of those evidences and accounts. Natural science relies on the facts that are reproducible and independent on the observers circumstances. If you can show me the same spiritual realm fact confirmed by multiple people belonging to different cultures and religious backgrounds (if any), then we can reconsider.

The link I posted above to the NDE account is an example of this: it presents a very different perspective on the purpose of our incarnations on Earth. But of course you discard it because it does not align with your views. So we are here facing a "bias" problem: in this spiritual science you only accept facts that align with your paradigm and disregard the facts (as illusions, hallucinations or wrong interpretations) that do not align with your paradigm. But this is not how science works. But in reality both views may be equally right: some souls indeed come to Earth to pursue the "cognitive metamorphosis" just like you described, and other souls may come to Earth to experience limited forms of existence like the NDE account suggested, and yet other souls may come for entirely different purposes.

Many NDE accounts suggest that in the discarnate realm there are many "interest groups" that have different views on reality and different life goals and values. There indeed may be a group of souls that incarnate on Earth to go through the thinking metamorphosis process, and what you are writing in your essays may be entirely applicable to such group. But there are many other groups incarnating into humans and having the same body-mind structures but actually perusing very different goals and having very different interests and views. this is why some people strongly resonate to some religions, values or views (say, to Christianity), and other people resonate to very different ones - that is simply because they belong to different "interest groups" and they intuitively know their goals and values and resonate with religions of philosophies that align with them.
To what Ashvin said I would like to add something. The integration of our metamorphic perspective doesn't simply lead to another set of facts which contradict everything we have from the past. The new facts completely explain all the previous experiences. I've already spoken about the reasons NDEs are so varied - because they are formatted through the etheric and physical bodies which are instrumental for the incarnate self. All the ancient Hindu wisdom, which was only much later written down in the Vedic literature, was attainted through a different state of consciousness than what we can do today. At that time the higher worlds were revealed in dream-like imaginations. By dream-like I don't mean dim and vague but as something that simply imprints itself in the soul without any cognitive activity. For example, the chakras were well known at that time but they were experienced differently, they were shining into the soul but the "I" activity was not yet present as it is today. If the soul could reflect on itself at that time it would have to say something like "My environment, the chakras, fill me with content, they unfold my destiny to which I react with my sympathies and antipathies". Today we feel within the chakras with our spiritual activity. We don't simply accept their shining passively but our cognitive activity passes through them as through a complicated kaleidoscopic optical system, which not only shapes our spiritual experience but we are reciprocally active in the organs, we modify their structure. For example, our ability to think clearly, logically, consistently depends (among other things) on the structure of the larynx chakra. As we make effort to develop our thinking (and this effort is spiritual activity) we are actually changing the structure of the larynx organ. The more we feel our thinking to be not simply jigsaw pieces bumping into each other but actual transducing of spiritual activity that flows into and away towards us from the world of perceptions, the more the larynx organ assumes its proper structure. The development of this organ, even if we don't yet know it, is responsible for the living comprehension (which gradually becomes so clear to us that we practically see it) of the depth axis within the metamorphic view. For example, if we are able to livingly experience our whole life in the sense of Ashvin's essays, as a gradual unfoldment from the infant state till today, as a kind of implosion and integration of time-being in a kind of a vortex, our larynx organ is already assuming its proper orientation. Of course this is only one aspect of it. There are so many things that must be in place at the same time.

I'm saying the above to point attention to the fact that everything that we have as spiritual lore of the past we must rediscover today, as if from 'the other side', as if 'inverted'. Before, everything flew towards humans by Grace as Cosmic images towards their souls. Today we attain again to these images but from their cognitive perspective. Before we beheld things as a soul world, Moon reflection, today we align with the rays of the Sun that produced the images in the first place. This has great repercussions for the way everything is being experienced and superficially it seems like there's contradiction. But the contradiction is only at face value. When things are understood properly (and they can be understood with nothing but unprejudiced thinking) not only that the contradiction is resolved but we can also understand exactly why the experiences took the form they did in the past.

I would like to also mention a common prejudice about the nature of objectivity of the higher worlds. Why can we speak about objective physical world? Because we are endowed by Nature with very consistently and similarly working sensory organs. We take that for granted but it is rarely reflected on the fact that if everyone's sense organs operated differently we could never even reach the agreement on objective sensory world. The prejudice that I talk about is that it's often imagined that the experiences in the higher realms present us some objective world that everyone should see in the same way. This is one of the most stubborn ideas and one of the greatest hinderances to spirituality as a whole. It results from the unconscious transposition of our Earthly state into the supposed spiritual world. We imagine that we are a 'unit' there that moves through that world and perceives the beings and environment. But this is not the case. Our 'unit' is gone together with the physical body. What remains is our spiritual organism which is spread out within the spheres. What we perceive of our environment is directly related to the degree we have developed the correct ideas in our Earthly life. Everyone experiences those things that have relation to their destiny (karma). The more we took interest about the higher worlds while in the body, the more now we are able to orient ourselves. So we see that what we see in the spiritual world is directly related to the development of our spiritual organization. It's like we are to develop our physical sight from scratch. Everyone will see differently until the organs are perfected. How do we know that they are perfected? By testing everything against the whole life. If we see a wall and can pass through it or we don't see a wall but bump into it, obviously there's work to be done on the eye. It's the same with spiritual perception. It's a constant process of refinement and testing.

The accusations for universalism are founded on prejudice. There are two ways to come to terms with the unity of the World. One is to accept everything as it is, as an amalgamation, where everything is fine the way it is. Ultimately this leads to some kind of deconstructivism. The other way is to penetrate into the actual spiritual organism that binds everything together. The reason that this is being seen as dictatorship is because from within the deconstructed perspective it looks like one deconstructed perspective tries to spread its view over all other. This probably fits well for the ambitions of the Church in the past centuries but has nothing to do with what we're speaking of here. We're interested in the true depth from which the deconstructed interest groups can be perceived and their origins explained. The only possible objection to this is that such a deep point of view is not possible, that the interest groups/individuals are the fundamental 'atoms' of the spiritual world and the One consciousness is only a neutral container for them, similarly to the way physical space is considered the container for particles. Clearly, on the purely abstract level, it's not possible to go beyond this conflict. It's one's word against another's. The only thing I can mention again is that the word derived from the higher worlds gives logical explanation for the conflicts between the deconstructed groups. It also gives the means and methods for their resolution and the possibility for the development of the individual's spiritual potential to the fullest, in complete freedom. Whoever wants to oppose these findings can do nothing more but proclaim them to be nothing more than a spiritual communistic ideology (clearly, all explanations about individual freedom and realization of human potential to the fullest have no power to show that such a view has no relation to the facts). Higher knowledge doesn't aim to destroy the interest groups, it just has the duty to indicate how they can make themselves compatible with the higher rhythms of Cosmic development. If nothing changes, shamanism will meet more and more only the inferior spirits. Instead of healing, all kinds of psychic deviations will develop and no one will know why. If nothing changes, nondual traditions will miss more and more the essential spiritual core of the human being. The outer world will fall more and more into decadence and the nondualist will explain this with the Kali Yuga, that he has to simply stay focused and pass through the incarnate dream and so on. There will be larger and larger disconnect between the interests of the souls and the happenings in the outer world, which results in a general mood of apathy. Things are even more clear for materialism, where even at this time, the life dispersed into the senses already leads to all kinds of nervous diseases (even though medicine is still a long way from spotting the connection). So it's not about spreading one ideology over everything else but elucidating the facts. Politics will continue, science will continue, arts will continue, economics will continue but everything will have to receive the light of the Spirit. The Divine must find its way into every expression of life. The ideas that spiritual life and Earthly happenings are strictly separate things or that spiritual life is the Earthly life, will be one of the greatest hinderances for evolution.
Simon Adams
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Re: Metamorphoses of the Spirit: Transfiguring our Thinking (Part I)

Post by Simon Adams »

AshvinP wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 2:26 pm
Simon - thanks for your detailed response. With regards to doctrine of "predestination", I am still not convinced it is found in scripture. We are definitely venturing outside of the purpose of the essays, which is really about focusing on our own inward experience rather than ancient texts, but I will also take blame for putting us on this path. And I don't want to leave you hanging on my response. I take the passage you quoted to be in the context of what some may call "universalism", which I take to mean no one is predestined to damnation. That is the thrust of what Paul is writing to a non-Jewish audience. We see that in the verses that follow:

"What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"
(Romans 8:31-35)
Of course the question here is about who Paul’s intended audience is. I’m open to the idea that it’s people who chose love and truth as best they can, or even everyone of ‘good will’. But I don’t think the rest of his letters or the gospels leave any room for it being all humans. Although it’s maybe relevant to your views, universalism is a whole debate by itself.
re: Aquinas and science - I do not agree he was referring to a fundamentally different approach to science than we have today.
The whole idea of science was very different, as it included everything related to the four causes (ie Aristotle). So it included philosophy and theology. Any subject where the cause can be established exactly so that there could be no other cause, was science. It wasn’t about observing nature, abstracting it (usually mathematically), and then testing that the abstraction holds true as our modern understanding of science entails.
For me this is the biggest problem with your approach. We could speak to a Freudian, a Jungian, an atheist, a Jew, a Hindi and a Buddhist about physics, and we all would know the ground rules. Each of these could be scientists working on the same area, and each would value each others work and opinion. Each of them may have a different conclusion about what the results mean in a wider context, and I agree that this Kantian separation between the empirical results and the wider implications is damaging. The lack of any ontology being applied naturally results in an assumption of the lowest common denominator ontology - physicalism. Of course that’s not the case for many individuals working in science, as they have their own grand narrative of which their work is just a part.

To me the answer is not to try to change the definition of science. As Einstein remarked, the increasing specialisation in science is too far gone to expect anyone to retain the broad horizon of knowledge. Even a polymath has to at some point accept a high level summary from the specialists. Instead the answer must be to challenge the assumed ontology of physicalism, and I think there is hope in this area. That way we have a better chance of the high level summaries having more informed metaphysical assumptions, and we have a better chance of fitting the different high level jigsaw pieces together.
Yes I agree challenging the assumed ontology is very important, which has been my primary focus so far. But we cannot simply say the physicalist ontology needs to go and leave it there. Essentially I am arguing that the monist-idealist assumption allows a shift in perspective which can open up many more empirical tools for scientific investigation which were simply ruled out before. I am not saying we need to "change the definition of science", but rather our definition of science has been self-limited by the flawed ontologies and it appears to me many idealists who agree nevertheless default into that same self-limited paradigm when pushed on what is actually possible from empirical scientific inquiry.
But how are you to verify things? Jung for example concluded that in psychology you see archetypes, and that these archetypes were in a sense shared between everyone in a collective consciousness. From an idealist perspective this of course makes a lot of sense. Now how do you know that this is not the same mistake physicalists make when they think material objects are the full reality? From a psychology perspective that doesn’t matter, for how they present in the psyche is what matters. That is the subject being studied. But when you expand this to physics, or to theology, you have to make a lot of assumptions about how the different ways of knowing correlate to the reality behind them. This is not a small thing. The very reason the scientific process is as it is, is because humans have a long history of making apparently obvious assumptions that turn out to be completely and fundamentally wrong.
Ideas are certain original forms of things, their archetypes, permanent and incommunicable, which are contained in the Divine intelligence. And though they neither begin to be nor cease, yet upon them are patterned the manifold things of the world that come into being and pass away.
St Augustine
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