Bernardo and Vervaeke on the Nature of Evil

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JLPratt
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Bernardo and Vervaeke on the Nature of Evil

Post by JLPratt »

In today's conversation with Curt Jaimungal, Bernardo and John talk at some length about the existence of evil and also touched upon Daoism. Perhaps synchronistically, yesterday I finished a translation of the Daoist take on evil. This issue of course is important for any idealist account of reality: "Whyfor conflict and suffering?" Any feedback on the logical points below would be warmly welcomed!

The Zhuangzi, Chapter 25, “Then ‘Yang’” with "Yang" being the counterpart to "Yin," relays a final dialogue between “Know Little” and “Transcendent Harmonizer." The dialogue begins with Know Little asking, “What is meant by ‘the words of the Encompassing Mound’?”, to which Transcendent Harmonizer replies:
A person of the Encompassing Mound recognizes the ten surnames and hundred given names as at once but customary, combining that which is different into the same, and dispersing that which is the same into the different. One can easily point to the hundred parts of a horse’s body but still not have a horse; at the same time, the horse is beholden to the former and called a horse based on the hundred parts. In the same way, a mound or a mountain humbly becomes tall, rivers grow expansive; a Sage merges all impassively. Thus, one who enters from the outside-in has mastery and does not grasp; while one who emerges from the inside-out has rectitude and does not distance.

Each of the Four Periods has its unique energy, Heaven (i.e., the Transcendent One) favors none, and thereby they come into their own; each of the five offices has its unique function, the Sovereign biases none and thereby the country is ordered; between the civilian and the martial, the Sage favors neither and thereby virtuosity is maintained; each of the Ten Thousand Things has a unique reason, the Dao is partial to none and thus all are empty of name. Empty of name they are as well empty of action, and empty of action there is nothing they do not do. Each period has a beginning and an end, a life has its changes, misfortune and fortune are simple and straightforward. That is to say, one who has certain hardship also has certain ease; further, extinguishing the unique self, one may have certain rectitude but also has certain shortcomings; compared to the Great Pool (i.e., the Dao), the hundred materials all have degrees. Observing the Mountain (i.e., the One), trees and rocks alike are altars. This is what is meant by “the words of the Encompassing Mound.”
Know Little wonders further, “Then, what’s called “the Dao,” is that enough?” The Transcendent Harmonizer elaborates:
Otherwise, to presently count the number of things, it would not be limited to ten thousand, but one who desires to identify as a person of the "Ten Thousand Things,” even when that total exceeds this number, still expresses him or herself the same way. And so, the person of Heaven and Earth (i.e., the Middle Way course) assumes the form of the Transcendent; the person of the YinYang possesses the Qi (i.e., cosmic energy) of the Transcendent; and the person of the Dao harmonizes all. Because of this Transcendence, the total can be spoken of this way; It simply is, yet contrasts must be made! In this way a distinction is drawn, for instance between a dog and a horse; It is never far off.
In this last line, “It” refers to the Encompassing Mound—that is to say the Transcendent One. Know Little then continues the dialogue by asking Transcendent Harmonizer how evil arises in such a context: “Within the Four Directions and among the Six Energies, how does evil arise among the Ten Thousand Things?” Transcendent Harmonizer expounds:
The Yin and the Yang reflect, enfold, and order each other; the Four Periods replace, beget, and finish one another. Want and evil go forthwith, as a bridge arises. The feminine and the masculine splice together, as a middle forms. Safety and peril change into each other, weal and woe beget one another, leisure and urgency rub against each other, gathering together and scattering apart become one another.

Such named realities can be recorded, the subtle profundity (i.e., the Dao, Destiny) can be willed. The sequential ordering’s mutual reasons, the bridge transiting’s mutual emissaries, the deficient then the opposite, the ending then the beginning, this here has all of that. The extent of language, the reach of knowledge, is a polarity of things and nothing more. With a person of the Dao, not following it spuriously, not originating it personally, the discussion ends here.
These paragraphs convey the subtle point that the transcending Middle Way bridge exists prior to even the Yin and the Yang distinction. The second sentence expresses this holistic insight by saying “want and evil” exist as a function of a bridge arising. The third sentence reinforces this point by invoking the basic feminine and masculine dichotomy and in place of the word “bridge” employing the term “common” (yong 庸), which also appears in the well-known expression “the Middle Way of the Dao” (Zhongyong zhi Dao 中庸之道). The two sentences together thus reiterate that the whole and a middle of that whole exist prior to the given parts, whether the YinYang Two or the Four Periods, which this passage began by highlighting as the two background fields for the manifestation of form (i.e., the YinYang Two in relation to the Embodied Three, and the Field Four in relation to the Five Phases).

Following this initial explanation, the fourth sentence presents how the two sides as contradictory opposites change into but then beget and challenge each other as well as finally become one another. The fifth sentence then communicates that such phenomena pointing to the Dao can be named, or nominated, and a person can “will” to attain the subtle profundity to which these names point—i.e., the Dao. Destiny and will (mingzhi 命志) exist as a YinYang dynamic, with the “will” existing as but for the “destiny”—again, the Dao. The final three sentences then conclude that language can go no further than this subtle metaphysics and that one who ponders “Whyfor Dao?” does not waste time on other notions or try to advance an independent theory.

As a whole, this reply to Know Little indicates that evil, as opposed to good, arises as a function of the manifestation of Yang form and for the purpose of experiencing the Yin emptiness, which is the key to the “good” leading to the "Good." The Dao De Jing’s second chapter encapsulates the same sentiment using similar language and logic:
Under Heaven (i.e., within the Transcendent One), the Beautiful is known as beautiful because of evil, the Good is known as good because of the not-good. It is, that thinghood and emptiness beget each other, difficulty and ease become one another, long and short form each other, above and below incline to one another, tone and sound harmonize with each other, front and back follow upon one another.

Hence, the Sage handles matters with effortless action, imparts teachings without speaking. The Ten Thousand Things does then willingly, begetting without possessing, acting without conditioning, accomplishing without residing. Such a Person alone does not reside, as he or she never goes there.
The Dao De Jing second chapter’s last sentence uses the verb “to go,” which is then also employed in the above Zhuangzi passage’s second sentence, “Want and evil go forthwith, as a bridge arises.” The earlier Dao De Jing lines establish that the Sage does not go in for the mundane realm of rigid oppositions, similar to not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Book of Genesis. Following up on the Dao De Jing, the Zhuangzi text elaborates on what it means to go there—that is, where “want and evil” dominate. Basically, the “want”—that is to say, misguided “will”—and then “evil” arise because of confusion and as a function of the Yang aspect.

Ostensibly satisfied with this answer, Know Little turns the conversation back to the ultimate nature of reality, “Jizhen says none acts, Jiezi says one acts. Of the two scholars’ opinions, which one is right and what is the reason?” Transcendent Harmonizer in the lengthiest response yet explicates:
That chickens squawk and dogs bark is something people know. Although a Transcendent Knowledge (i.e., the Transcendent One, or Logos) exists, its self-transformation cannot be articulated, and its doings cannot be conceptualized. If analyzed, moreover, its essence is beyond distinction, the Transcendent cannot be encompassed.

It issues forth, no one does it, it avoids not the material yet at once is already gone. It issues forth into fullness, no one acts on such emptiness. That with a name has fullness, such is the “house” of the material; that without a name has no fullness, such is the “emptiness” of the material. To the extent It can be articulated and conceptualized, words but scatter It further. What precedes begetting cannot be envied, what succeeds dying cannot be eclipsed. Dying and begetting are not far apart, the reason cannot be ascertained.

It issues forth, no one does it, suspect all else as false. When we observe its nature, it goes to the infinite; when we seek its nature, it never stops coming. “Infinite and never-ending”…language is this emptiness as well, along with the material and for the same reason. It issues forth, no one does it…language is also such that, with the material it ends and begins. The Dao cannot be had, and what is had cannot be empty (i.e., the Dao). When the Dao is considered a name, all that is false comes into being.

It issues forth, no one does it…when the material becomes one song, the northern and western outsiders go in the Transcendent Direction (i.e., the Transcendent One)! To the extent language is sufficient, then till the last day language will approximate the Dao; to the extent language is insufficient, then till the last day language will approximate the material.

The Dao and the material are two extremities, language and silence together are insufficient to circumscribe them. Without language, without silence, meaning attains such extremities.
The dialogue's concluding sentences convey that only without the combination of words and silence, in other words, the interplay that is “thought,” is the Transcendent One attained and then does the Transcendent One transform into the Dao, which is Emptiness, also the essence of the material. In short, the two extremities are necessarily the same Emptiness. Modern physics in reducing “the material” to quantum fields seems to have reached the same conclusion.

Overall, this dialogue ending the chapter on, “Then ‘Yang,’” offers that contradiction and thus confusion and “evil” is a function of the secondary “Yang” aspect, though contradiction certainly involves both the Yin and the Yang aspects. With the YinYang in discord, these two sides contradict, chase, and deplete each other. For one who can bring the YinYang into harmony, the two sides may complement, support, and attain each other, leading to the Transcendent One and Ultimate Emptiness.

As the ending points out, language and thought—at once the Yang “matter” aspect—can chase after the material, which ultimately is but Emptiness, or language and thought can chase after the non-material, often naming and thus delineating it, but which ultimately is also but Emptiness. Reality has a reason, or pattern, but this reason is not formalizable--a point John Vervaeke stressed in the conversation today. All one can do is to grasp the pattern’s properties, as in the subtle YinYang Twoness, Embodied Threeness, and so on. One can name the Dao but the Dao is never the name, as the Dao De Jing famously commences.
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AshvinP
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Re: Bernardo and Vervaeke on the Nature of Evil

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JL,

That was a very interesting post, thank you.

I have always found Daoist philosophy to be profound and helpful when encountering these deep issues. Carl Jung had many great thinks to say about it and he is one of the 20th century philosophical minds I respect the most. He comments significantly on "The Secret of the Golden Flower" in one of his works on alchemy. I will see if I can find the full text anywhere. With Jung, it is always about striving to "reunite the opposites" (Yin-Yang) through a natural metamorphic process of "individuation".

There are many parts of your post which also resonated with an essay I am currently writing which focuses on Heidegger's analysis of Thinking. Although I am still trying to orient myself with these ideas so I will refrain from comment now. Regarding "evil" in general, it seems to me that fundamentally stems from our ignorance of the noumenal relations which support our being. We do not see the ways in which we are hurting ourselves when making various "evil" decisions, so we continue to make them. In that sense, I find Gnostic thought in this area very useful, which also relates to Jung and his psychology, as well as Steiner and Anthroposophy.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
JLPratt
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Joined: Thu May 06, 2021 2:32 pm

Re: Bernardo and Vervaeke on the Nature of Evil

Post by JLPratt »

AshvinP wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:00 am JL,

That was a very interesting post, thank you.

I have always found Daoist philosophy to be profound and helpful when encountering these deep issues. Carl Jung had many great thinks to say about it and he is one of the 20th century philosophical minds I respect the most. He comments significantly on "The Secret of the Golden Flower" in one of his works on alchemy. I will see if I can find the full text anywhere. With Jung, it is always about striving to "reunite the opposites" (Yin-Yang) through a natural metamorphic process of "individuation".

There are many parts of your post which also resonated with an essay I am currently writing which focuses on Heidegger's analysis of Thinking. Although I am still trying to orient myself with these ideas so I will refrain from comment now. Regarding "evil" in general, it seems to me that fundamentally stems from our ignorance of the noumenal relations which support our being. We do not see the ways in which we are hurting ourselves when making various "evil" decisions, so we continue to make them. In that sense, I find Gnostic thought in this area very useful, which also relates to Jung and his psychology, as well as Steiner and Anthroposophy.
Thank you, Ashvin, for your comment and reflections. You're right, Carl Jung did have many good things to say about Daoism, including insofar as it informed his own practice of analytical psychology. Reflecting on complementarity and the Tao as a transcendent Middle Way path, Jung at one point said, “Unfortunately our Western mind, lacking all culture in this respect, has never yet devised a concept, nor even a name, for the union of opposites through the middle path, that most fundamental item of inward experience, which could respectably be set against the Chinese concept of Tao.” C. G. Jung, Collected Works, Vol. III, “Two Essays on Analytical Psychology,” 203 (R. F. G. Hull trans.).

Your Heidegger project sounds fascinating. Some scholars of Chinese philosophy think he was also influenced by Daoism, perhaps more than he would like to admit. I look forward to reading your work!
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AshvinP
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Re: Bernardo and Vervaeke on the Nature of Evil

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JLPratt wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:55 am
AshvinP wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:00 am JL,

That was a very interesting post, thank you.

I have always found Daoist philosophy to be profound and helpful when encountering these deep issues. Carl Jung had many great thinks to say about it and he is one of the 20th century philosophical minds I respect the most. He comments significantly on "The Secret of the Golden Flower" in one of his works on alchemy. I will see if I can find the full text anywhere. With Jung, it is always about striving to "reunite the opposites" (Yin-Yang) through a natural metamorphic process of "individuation".

There are many parts of your post which also resonated with an essay I am currently writing which focuses on Heidegger's analysis of Thinking. Although I am still trying to orient myself with these ideas so I will refrain from comment now. Regarding "evil" in general, it seems to me that fundamentally stems from our ignorance of the noumenal relations which support our being. We do not see the ways in which we are hurting ourselves when making various "evil" decisions, so we continue to make them. In that sense, I find Gnostic thought in this area very useful, which also relates to Jung and his psychology, as well as Steiner and Anthroposophy.
Thank you, Ashvin, for your comment and reflections. You're right, Carl Jung did have many good things to say about Daoism, including insofar as it informed his own practice of analytical psychology. Reflecting on complementarity and the Tao as a transcendent Middle Way path, Jung at one point said, “Unfortunately our Western mind, lacking all culture in this respect, has never yet devised a concept, nor even a name, for the union of opposites through the middle path, that most fundamental item of inward experience, which could respectably be set against the Chinese concept of Tao.” C. G. Jung, Collected Works, Vol. III, “Two Essays on Analytical Psychology,” 203 (R. F. G. Hull trans.).

Your Heidegger project sounds fascinating. Some scholars of Chinese philosophy think he was also influenced by Daoism, perhaps more than he would like to admit. I look forward to reading your work!
JL,

Great quote from Jung! I was not aware of the possible Daoist influence on Heidegger, only that he was vaguely interested in Eastern mystical philosophy in his later period. It makes a ton of sense now that you mention it. There is also much overlap between Jung and Heidegger in that regard. The former is much easier to follow than the latter, but I hope my essay makes it a little bit easier. Your comments here have also inspired me to consider taking it in a certain direction, so thank you for that!
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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