Illusionism and consciousness

[TomGuy1]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and was hoping people might be able to offer some insight on this. I've been reading about illusionism and have been trying to understand the 'illusionism problem'. Is the problem have to do with how the brain creates such an illusion or why the brain creates the illusion of awareness, feeling sensation etc. ? Also does is this problem impassable like the hard problem or do you think it could actually be solved with a materialist worldview?

[AshvinP]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and was hoping people might be able to offer some insight on this. I've been reading about illusionism and have been trying to understand the 'illusionism problem'. Is the problem have to do with how the brain creates such an illusion or why the brain creates the illusion of awareness, feeling sensation etc. ? Also does is this problem impassable like the hard problem or do you think it could actually be solved with a materialist worldview?

Tom,

It's just complete nonsense... there's no nicer way to put it. When it becomes nearly impossible to even understand what is being claimed, we should ignore and move on.

[Adur Alkain]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and was hoping people might be able to offer some insight on this. I've been reading about illusionism and have been trying to understand the 'illusionism problem'. Is the problem have to do with how the brain creates such an illusion or why the brain creates the illusion of awareness, feeling sensation etc. ? Also does is this problem impassable like the hard problem or do you think it could actually be solved with a materialist worldview?

Hi Tom,

If you mean the theory, proposed by Daniel Dennett and others, that consciousness is an illusion created by the brain, I think it's the only consistent materialistic theory of consciousness there is. If you want, for ideological reasons, to stick to materialism (there are no other reasons for it, since all the scientific evidence speaks against materialism), illusionism is the best option, in my opinion. (At least it's the only honest option. Emergentism seems philosophically inconsistent to me.)

But then, of course, you will have to maintain that you are not really conscious, that your own experience of consciousness is just an illusion. It's a high price to pay, and I don't believe that anybody, not even professional philosophers like Dennett that have made a living out of it, can truly believe this theory. I'm sure that Dennett will claim that he truly does, but if we told him "Fine, you won't mind then if we give you this painless lethal injection and put an end to that illusion, right?", I think he wouldn't be so keen to prove his point.

And then, of course, there is the problem that you point at: how does the brain create this illusion? I don't think there is any scientific theory that can even begin to explain that. It's just a philosophical position, based on an anti-spiritual ideology. It has no base in science, and it radically denies the validity of our own experience.

[Jim Cross]

And then, of course, there is the problem that you point at: how does the brain create this illusion? I don't think there is any scientific theory that can even begin to explain that. It's just a philosophical position, based on an anti-spiritual ideology. It has no base in science, and it radically denies the validity of our own experience.

I think McFadden's cemi theory does a pretty good job of explaining how it is created.

consciousness implements algorithms in space, rather than time, within the brain’s EM field. I describe how the cemi field theory accounts for most observed features of consciousness and describe recent experimental support for the theory. I also describe several untested predictions of the theory and discuss its implications for the design of artificial consciousness. The cemi field theory proposes a scientific dualism that is rooted in the difference between matter and energy, rather than matter and spirit”.

https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/202 ... 16/5909853

This wouldn't be illusionism because consciousness, as a physical force, could have causal efficacy.

[Eugene I]

And then, of course, there is the problem that you point at: how does the brain create this illusion? I don't think there is any scientific theory that can even begin to explain that. It's just a philosophical position, based on an anti-spiritual ideology. It has no base in science, and it radically denies the validity of our own experience.

I think McFadden's cemi theory does a pretty good job of explaining how it is created.

consciousness implements algorithms in space, rather than time, within the brain’s EM field. I describe how the cemi field theory accounts for most observed features of consciousness and describe recent experimental support for the theory. I also describe several untested predictions of the theory and discuss its implications for the design of artificial consciousness. The cemi field theory proposes a scientific dualism that is rooted in the difference between matter and energy, rather than matter and spirit”.

https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/202 ... 16/5909853

This wouldn't be illusionism because consciousness, as a physical force, could have causal efficacy.

The problem of "how brain creates this illusion" is in principle solvable because it belongs to the category of "easy problems of consciousness" (in Chalmers terms, which does not mean that they are actually easy, but only that they are in principle solvable). McFadden's theory is one of these attempts, and we shall see how successfully is will be.

The real "hard problem" is how all those EM states make the very conscious experiencing of that "illusion" possible. Neither McFadden's theory, nor any others known so far offer even a slightest clue of how to explain that, even though the experiencing of qualia is an obvious experiential/experimental fact and, as such, ought to be explained by science.

[Astra052]

And then, of course, there is the problem that you point at: how does the brain create this illusion? I don't think there is any scientific theory that can even begin to explain that. It's just a philosophical position, based on an anti-spiritual ideology. It has no base in science, and it radically denies the validity of our own experience.

I think McFadden's cemi theory does a pretty good job of explaining how it is created.

consciousness implements algorithms in space, rather than time, within the brain’s EM field. I describe how the cemi field theory accounts for most observed features of consciousness and describe recent experimental support for the theory. I also describe several untested predictions of the theory and discuss its implications for the design of artificial consciousness. The cemi field theory proposes a scientific dualism that is rooted in the difference between matter and energy, rather than matter and spirit”.

https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/202 ... 16/5909853

This wouldn't be illusionism because consciousness, as a physical force, could have causal efficacy.

The problem of "how brain creates this illusion" is in principle solvable because it belongs to the category of "easy problems of consciousness" (in Chalmers terms, which does not mean that they are actually easy, but only that they are in principle solvable). McFadden's theory is one of these attempts, and we shall see how successfully is will be.

The real "hard problem" is how all those EM states make the very conscious experiencing of that "illusion" possible. Neither McFadden's theory, nor any others known so far offer even a slightest clue of how to explain that, even though the experiencing of qualia is an obvious experiential/experimental fact and, as such, ought to be explained by science.

My question to this is always what is the illusion appearing to? What is it that exists to percieve the illusion if not our consciousness?

[Eugene I]

My question to this is always what is the illusion appearing to? What is it that exists to percieve the illusion if not our consciousness?

Exactly

[Jim Cross]

My question to this is always what is the illusion appearing to? What is it that exists to percieve the illusion if not our consciousness?

If there is any illusion relating to consciousness, it is the illusion that there is something the representations of consciousness are appearing to.

The real "hard problem" is how all those EM states make the very conscious experiencing of that "illusion" possible.

Really this is moving the goal line. You can keep shifting it until ultimately you end of it with the ultimate "hard problem" of why does anything exist. Even idealism doesn't have an answer for that one.