Possible objection to the universal mind dissociating

[Ben Iscatus]

What Soul of Shu says makes sense. How can nothing be dissociated? Dissociation is what brings about our sense of separation and limitation. If there were no dissociation, then we'd feel ourselves to be Mind at Large, know what Mind at Large knows and know what every other individual mind knows.

[Soul_of_Shu]

What Soul of Shu says makes sense. How can nothing be dissociated? Dissociation is what brings about our sense of separation and limitation. If there were no dissociation, then we'd feel ourselves to be Mind at Large, know what Mind at Large knows and know what every other individual mind knows.

The issue most often is with the term 'dissociation', and overlooking what it is intended to convey, while getting hung up on the DID analog, with its more negative connotations of exemplifying a psychic illness, or even insanity—thus Lou's offering of Divinely Integrated Diversity being more user-friendly, so to speak. However, if not getting hung up on the 'disorder' connotation, I find the term 'dissociation' an adequate descriptor of M@L undergoing a process of partitioning into boundary-defined, yet still pervious, inter-being, subjectified loci of consciousness, allowing for the experiencing/exploring of this relational, evolving subject><object, feedback dynamic, and evermore novel creative 'self'-expressions. From there, falling under the maya-spell of the notion of there being a mind-independent realm of 'matter' from which consciousness inexplicably emerges, is a whole other degree of apparent, and far more suffering prone, separation—albeit, that too not being precluded as a novel exploration. Nevertheless, if there is a term other than dissociation that can better convey this process, I'm open to it.

[Eugene I]

Dana, very much agree

[SanteriSatama]

So either mind at large is meta-conscious and somehow dissociates into different alters. Or the theory can't be correct.

There are no proofs of course, but I also think that MAL is meta-cognitive. BK's objection to meta-cognitive MAL is rather ethical: in BK's view a meta-cognitive MAL with a developed sense of empathy could not create/ideate a universe with so much suffering for conscious alters and expose the alters to suffering without their consent. IMO this problem can be resolved if we assume the possibility of reincarnation, so that we alters in a discarnate form deliberately choose to incarnate into humans knowing that it will involve some amount of suffering but also knowing that suffering will catalyze further spiritual development of our consciousness.

The example of our design of computer game virtual realities where we suffer and cause suffering (figuratively) through our avatars does not offer much support for the ethics of metacognitive intelligent design. We imagine that our game avatars don't really feel, although we do emotionally participate and engage with our avatars.

There's anecdotal evidence from a trip to death and back here, that the Mother goddess in which we occur is very youthful (by divine degree) sentience deity, fiercely loving and very curious to explore and experience all kinds of emotions in her rich internal life.

The philosophical question becomes, is She the MAL? Or could purely metacognitive MAL create Her as a DID? What other options?

[SanteriSatama]

As a simple analogy, you can think of the perceived worlds as a virtual reality evolutionary game imagined/ideated by the MAL. It took millions of "virtual" years for organisms to evolve and become cognitive in this VR, but not all of them represent the "real players" in the game. The "players" (alters) typically only get involved in the game through avatars with sufficiently developed cognitive capacities so they can enjoy the game and benefit/learn from it.

Mathematics and MUH (mathematical universe hypothesis) gets very much involved when we talk about VR designs. Though often considered very metacognitive and abstract in detached sence, real math and its evolution is really driven by deep passion and often manifests as psychotic tripping.

Chaos mages cherish (in their warped heyoka way) the idea of game design, where players try to figure out the rules (ie. the math) of the game, and when they succeed, the "game maker" changes the game. So, this is half joke that can be interpreted also in slightly different ways, e.g. as a (meta)algorithm for efficient evolution of mathematics, without necessity for external game maker, as that part is possible to handle also in participatory way.

With quantum revercimal time now also in the game and in metacognitive mathematical cognition, arguments from only unilinear time and notion of evolution don't appear very strong.

[Eugene I]

Mathematics and MUH (mathematical universe hypothesis) gets very much involved when we talk about VR designs. Though often considered very metacognitive and abstract in detached sence, real math and its evolution is really driven by deep passion and often manifests as psychotic tripping.

Chaos mages cherish (in their warped heyoka way) the idea of game design, where players try to figure out the rules (ie. the math) of the game, and when they succeed, the "game maker" changes the game. So, this is half joke that can be interpreted also in slightly different ways, e.g. as a (meta)algorithm for efficient evolution of mathematics, without necessity for external game maker, as that part is possible to handle also in participatory way.
[/quote]
Evolutionary game inside evolutionary game

[Eugene I]

There's anecdotal evidence from a trip to death and back here, that the Mother goddess in which we occur is very youthful (by divine degree) sentience deity, fiercely loving and very curious to explore and experience all kinds of emotions in her rich internal life.

The philosophical question becomes, is She the MAL? Or could purely metacognitive MAL create Her as a DID? What other options?

Good questions, Santeri, and that is exactly what this NDE experiencer Nanci Danison also witnessed. She mentions that the Source is "like a child", "loving, curious, creative", "it does not understand its own nature", "it is a part of greater species of entities", whatever it means.

[SanteriSatama]

Yup, Nanci Davison was the anecdotal empirical evidence I was referring to.

I think we agreed to agree at least tentatively with Lou that she - the Source-sentience of this domain - is a Mother among Mothers, a daugher become a young mother. This view would not be incoherent with animistic philosophy of perspectival multinaturalism, scaled to animistic multiverse level. Which AFAIK is coherent also with Buddhist cosmology.

In our mythology, She could correspond with Ilmatar (Ilma (air, sky, weather) with feminine suffix). The relation between Ilmatar and Väinämöinen (from the word for still of the water, e.g. center of the whirlpool) is a creation story, and much more social complexity is suggested and imaginable from the story and their relation.

"Not understanding her own nature" is an interesting comment and question. Back in the day there was contemplation of a "Lonely God", but that had more male and metacognitive aspect. The suggestion seems to be that metacognition is fundamentally a social phenomenon involving some sort of mirroring and projection. In which case the conclusion would be that MAL can't be metacognitive One, or if we was, he would go crazy from loneliness.

[SanteriSatama]

While it's sometimes fun to pose either-or questions ("Is MAL sentience or metacognition, feel or thought?"), we don't need to take the ultimately undecidable frame of the question too seriously. The actual reality of the divine sphere appears much more like process philosophical soap opera.

A new (for me at least) story-interpretation has been in the tasting process, a "Sympathy for the Sauron" story. At the moment it sounds like a story about the God that the Nietzsche observed and commented as dead. In the story behind the story, of course Sauron had won the war*, and ruled the universe as the One Dictator. That didn't make him happy, when it crept on him that the responsibility was too much to handle, and he was feeling also very lonely and bored without the thrill of the fight and challenge. So he gave away his most Preciouss, or "His Only Son", as the Christian euphemism goes, by dropping Empedokles who then had the Ring in Etna by his powers of mind control of less experienced and incarnated deity. As the coward he was. And of course you can't get rid of the Ring without regrets, and sooner or later jumping after the Ring you dropped, like a good Gollum. So through the fires of transformation also Sauron the Father followed his Only Son, and so there was Anarchy, with questions concerning creation of new kinds of pantheons with their Soap Operas. Which can be also an euphemism for "purification space". Or vice versa.

*The Fellowship of the Ring lost the fight, because of heroical narratology they weren't strictly goal oriented and didn't use the Eagles.

[SanteriSatama]

PPS: The new tree that Cleric K is growing into, could she perhaps be an Ent-Wife? Hmmm, Barum Nicht, hmmm...?