Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

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AshvinP
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Re: Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

Post by AshvinP »

SanteriSatama wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:12 am
AshvinP wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:16 pm The real transition to "asubjective commons" occurs when we are initiated, transfigured, reborn, etc. into much higher perception-cognition of the Spirit. That is what allows true "listening" to poetry and music in Steiner's view. It will not come from simply listening and adjusting our language, although I agree we must practice the art of carefully using language when writing about all such matters, or carefully listening to music/language, which will be extremely helpful groundwork for our journey into higher realms of knowledge.
Initiations and transformations are also a continuous process of many events which can come in many forms and shapes. Not a single switch, and I don't think Steiner has been arguing for such.

The core dilemma of teaching is, how to teach healthy self-confidence? :P
Steiner pedagogy, I assume, originates from that question, which is also an art without end, not something that can be build into a rigid system.
There is definitely no "switch" or abrupt transformation from lower to higher which cease once reaching the latter - it is continuous process as you say, and requires a lot of patience and discipline. Indeed it will require many lifetimes of patience and discipline. But we should also remember Steiner's approach is built on the wisdom and practices of initiates and esoteric spiritual traditions for millennia and aions, also integrating all of that wisdom with modern scientific mode of consciousness, so his process is very detailed like any scientific theory would be. He lays out many such details in Knowledge of Higher Worlds and Their Attainment:

Steiner wrote:First of all, something is to be offered those people who feel drawn to the results of spiritual research, and who must raise the question: “Well, whence do these persons derive their knowledge who claim the ability to tell us something of the profound riddles of life?” — Spiritual science does this. Whoever wishes to observe the facts leading to such claims must rise to supersensible cognition. He must follow the path I have endeavored to describe in this book. On the other hand, it would be an error to imagine these disclosures of spiritual science to be valueless for one who lacks the inclination or the possibility to pursue this path himself. In order to establish the facts through research, the ability to enter the supersensible worlds is indispensable; but once they have been discovered and communicated, even one who does not perceive them himself can be adequately convinced of their truth. A large proportion of them can be tested offhand, simply by applying ordinary common sense in a genuinely unprejudiced way. Only, one must not let this open-mindedness become confused by any of the pre-conceived ideas so common in human life. Someone can easily believe, for example, that some statement or other contradicts certain facts established by modern science. In reality, there is no such thing as a scientific fact that contradicts spiritual science; but there can easily seem to be contradictions unless scientific conclusions are consulted abundantly and without prejudice. The student will find that the more open-mindedly he compares spiritual science with positive scientific achievements, the more clearly is complete accord to be seen.

Another category of spiritual-scientific disclosures, it is true, will be found to elude purely mental judgment more or less; but the right relation to these also will be achieved without great difficulty by one who understands that not the mind alone but healthy feeling as well is qualified to determine what is true. And when this feeling does not permit itself to be warped by a liking or antipathy for some opinion or other, but really allows higher knowledge to act without prejudice, a corresponding sentient judgment results.

And there are many more ways of confirming this knowledge for those who cannot or do not wish to tread the path into the supersensible world. Such people can feel very clearly what value this knowledge has in life, even when it comes to them only through the communications of those engaged in spiritual research. Not everyone can immediately achieve spiritual vision; but the discoveries of those who have it can be health-giving life-nourishment for all. For everyone can apply them; and whoever does so will soon discover what life in every branch can be with their aid, and what it lacks without them. The results of supersensible knowledge, when properly employed in life, prove to be — not unpractical, but rather, practical in the highest sense.

I think Steiner is very clear that he isn't telling anyone the they must do A, B, C, D in a rigid manner or accept anything he says on faith. Cleric has said that too many times. And I definitely say that because I am not approaching it from any usual esoteric manner and have not attempted to penetrate into higher realms beyond any most basic practice, so what do I know? Very little. But, on the other hand, it is clear what Steiner says, he says it in very precise manner, and yet people still respond to any mention of him or his ideas in very predictable obfuscating ways. Except for FB - his approach was not at all predictable, but nevertheless completely off target. The more standard approach is to claim Steiner has some useful wisdom and insights on these matters, but his spiritual science was basically his decision to engage in pure fantasy about what's occurring in spiritual realms, and he really didn't care if anyone arrived at the same conclusions he did. Whether we agree with him or not, and, again, we should not agree with him without "testing everything and holding fast what is good", it is not accurate or honest to misrepresent his life's work in that way (I am not saying that is what you are doing, but many of his critics in general).
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
findingblanks
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Re: Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

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"Could it be that you guys are just trying to push this thread to 50 pages, then try for the century mark?"

.......................................................................???..................................................................................................................??????...................Yeah, I think that's probably true.
findingblanks
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Re: Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

Post by findingblanks »

As horribly embarrassing as this thread is on many levels, it actually is fascinating from a meta perspective regarding the interplay of Bernardo's brilliance and his other ways of dancing.
SanteriSatama
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Re: Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

Post by SanteriSatama »

findingblanks wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:40 am As horribly embarrassing as this thread is on many levels, it actually is fascinating from a meta perspective regarding the interplay of Bernardo's brilliance and his other ways of dancing.
Shared embarrasment is a form of compassion. :)
Ben Iscatus
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Re: Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

Post by Ben Iscatus »

(btw, GO ENGLAND!!
Yay! I bags England = Schop, Ukraine = Steiner.
(But I guess Italy will be Nisargadatta)
Ah yes, Nisargadattatelli ... Direct pointer striker supremo! Better put both Schop and Steiner in goal, hands waving wildly :mrgreen:
We wuz right. Nisargadattatelli is supreme.
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AshvinP
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Re: Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

Post by AshvinP »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:43 pm
(btw, GO ENGLAND!!
Yay! I bags England = Schop, Ukraine = Steiner.
(But I guess Italy will be Nisargadatta)
Ah yes, Nisargadattatelli ... Direct pointer striker supremo! Better put both Schop and Steiner in goal, hands waving wildly :mrgreen:
We wuz right. Nisargadattatelli is supreme.

I am going to say Argentina was Anthroposophy and Messi was Steiner reincarnate ;)
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
Ben Iscatus
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Re: Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

Post by Ben Iscatus »

I am going to say Argentina was Anthroposophy and Messi was Steiner reincarnate ;)
Accepted. Mu favourite ever team was the Dutch total football team under Johan Cruyff. They were tapping into a footballing archetype, equalled perhaps only by the Platonic perfection of Brazil under Pele. By comparison, all modern teams are but shadows in the batcave.
SanteriSatama
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Re: Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

Post by SanteriSatama »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:19 pm
I am going to say Argentina was Anthroposophy and Messi was Steiner reincarnate ;)
Accepted. Mu favourite ever team was the Dutch total football team under Johan Cruyff. They were tapping into a footballing archetype, equalled perhaps only by the Platonic perfection of Brazil under Pele. By comparison, all modern teams are but shadows in the batcave.
I was too young for Pele, but I did love Brazil under Socrates.

50 pages without Monty Python philosopher football! Let's keep it that way!
findingblanks
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Re: Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

Post by findingblanks »

For those of you who agree with Steiner that the reason we experience percepts divorced from concepts is because our thinking divides them, describe this observation. Try not to beg-the-question. Thanks!
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Re: Philosophy Unbound: Schopenhauer vs. Steiner (Round One)

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

SanteriSatama wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:24 pm50 pages without Monty Python philosopher football! Let's keep it that way!
Unless the mod goes on a power-trip and locks and shackles this thread ... or perhaps I'll crucify it instead :mrgreen:

Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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