Mostly I am trying to direct attention to the spiritual realities underlying all of that. It sounded to me like both JP and JV were eager to see how their academic thoughts in their respective works can be translated into more spiritual language, but also hesitant to do so at the same time. They both know the baggage that will be laid at their doorsteps by doing so and I think JV is especially worried about that because he is not as popular and "untouchable" as JP. Although, he may genuinely want to develop a whole new 'mythology' around these things sort of like Jordan Hall... I'm not sure about that. Some of it may also be unconscious or semi-conscious. Overall, I think JV has a much more grounded understanding of those spiritual issues running through Western mythology, philosophy, literature, art, etc. but JP has this broader and lower-resolution Trinitarian perspective and is willing to be more of a risk-taker and just blurt out things that are explicitly in those spiritual terms. I have sensed some of that in BK's recent conversations too but not to the same extent and BK is always very careful with his language as a professional philosopher. It will be very interesting to see if anything comes of these new explorations.SanteriSatama wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:35 pmJP had an excellent discussion about psychadelics with an academic researcher. Of course, psychadelics can open "the gates of perception", but similar experiences can and do occur also spontaneously, and what is important is the actual learning and transformation, less so various tools and techniques.AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:26 pm I do blame JP for diverting the discussion away from those things. He was jumping all over the map. I don't see how that could have been anything other than his attempts to relieve pain of sitting still. But I am saying we should try to mine whatever gold we can get from that discussion, now that it's over and it went the way it went. JP may reduce those mysteries to psychedelic use, I am not sure... but they are much more significant than mere use of psychedelics.
Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
Very good point. There must be death before there can be ResurrectionSoul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:05 amThe indoctrination surely dies hard, a death that often seems to require some indelible revelatory component, beyond just some cogent intellectual argument, which once attained then renders the intellectual case ancillary. JV may just be in that category.AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:53 pmI really can't figure out why JV does not accept idealism yet... it's like everything else he says about consciousness and knowledge is exactly what flows from idealism, and he even knows BK is making undeniable arguments. Maybe because he thinks idealism is "too simple" of an explanation, and he doesn't want any ontology without a few layers of abstract concepts for the Ground? I don't get it.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
He is energised more by epistemology than ontology. That is probably richer ground for professional academics. Analogous to there being more research into the soft problem than the hard problem.AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:59 pm I really can't figure out why JV does not accept idealism yet... it's like everything else he says about consciousness and knowledge is exactly what flows from idealism, and he even knows BK is making undeniable arguments. Maybe because he thinks idealism is "too simple" of an explanation, and he doesn't want any ontology without a few layers of abstract concepts for the Ground? I don't get it.
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Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
Yeah, there does seem to be a certain indifference towards ontology, as if it's not really relevant to their real interest, and remaining agnostic must feel like the easier way to go, while working within academia. I somehow doubt that BK would have lasted long at U of T.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
Contemporary Academy is by definition limited to epistemology.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:41 amYeah, there does seem to be a certain indifference towards ontology, as if it's not really relevant to their real interest, and remaining agnostic must feel like the easier way to go, while working within academia. I somehow doubt that BK would have lasted long at U of T.
Re: Peterson dialogos with Vervaeke
Interestingly enough, there is a part of the conversation where JV says, "if we want to answer the question of consciousness, we must get back to ontology" or something like that. He then mentions something about "object-oriented ontology", but I stopped around there and am not sure if he ever gets around to explaining what that is.Starbuck wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:21 amHe is energised more by epistemology than ontology. That is probably richer ground for professional academics. Analogous to there being more research into the soft problem than the hard problem.AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:59 pm I really can't figure out why JV does not accept idealism yet... it's like everything else he says about consciousness and knowledge is exactly what flows from idealism, and he even knows BK is making undeniable arguments. Maybe because he thinks idealism is "too simple" of an explanation, and he doesn't want any ontology without a few layers of abstract concepts for the Ground? I don't get it.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."