why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
We all have a common physiology with similar brains. Most of the online reporters probably come from similar Judeo-Christian background. It isn't surprising people report similar experiences.
So why do we seem to be different people? Why aren't I staring out of your eyeballs as well as my own? If my brain is creating me then your brain should be creating me as well.
So why do we seem to be different people? Why aren't I staring out of your eyeballs as well as my own? If my brain is creating me then your brain should be creating me as well.
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Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
Jim,
When you say "similar Judeo-Christian backgrounds" what are you referring to? Is it exposure to some similar myths, etc?
When you say "similar Judeo-Christian backgrounds" what are you referring to? Is it exposure to some similar myths, etc?
Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
I don't know why the idea that we are similar but separate is difficult for you to understand. It would seem to be a non-controversial idea.tjssailor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:19 pm We all have a common physiology with similar brains. Most of the online reporters probably come from similar Judeo-Christian background. It isn't surprising people report similar experiences.
So why do we seem to be different people? Why aren't I staring out of your eyeballs as well as my own? If my brain is creating me then your brain should be creating me as well.
Last edited by Jim Cross on Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
Yes. Many posting online would come from a background that believed in a soul, life after death, probably heaven and hell and angels, and possibly the idea of meeting loved ones who have passed in heaven.ParadoxZone wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:58 pm Jim,
When you say "similar Judeo-Christian backgrounds" what are you referring to? Is it exposure to some similar myths, etc?
In addition to that, we now have decades of books, accounts, and movies about NDEs. Many people have become familiar with the accounts.
This, along with our cultural background, sets up a narrative framework for understanding any experience one might have near death.
Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
Before Dr. Moody published his first book describing NDE accounts nobody knew about them, yet most of the accounts he described had the same features - the tunnel, the light, the deceased relatives etc. Also, if these experiences would be a result of Judeo-Christian background, people would be more likely to see the scenes we usually see in the church and religious paintings: winged angels, saints with halos etc (none of which ever had any "tunnels"), but that is not the case. From all NDE accounts I ever read none of them mentioned any "winged angels" or "saints with halos around their heads" whatsoever.Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:00 am In addition to that, we now have decades of books, accounts, and movies about NDEs. Many people have become familiar with the accounts.
This, along with our cultural background, sets up a narrative framework for understanding any experience one might have near death.
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
To be clear, I am accounting for the similar content of the experience to two separate things that work together.Eugene I wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:47 pmBefore Dr. Moody published his first book describing NDE accounts nobody knew about them, yet most of the accounts he described had the same features - the tunnel, the light, the deceased relatives etc. Also, if these experiences would be a result of Judeo-Christian background, people would be more likely to see the scenes we usually see in the church and religious paintings: winged angels, saints with halos etc (none of which ever had any "tunnels"), but that is not the case. From all NDE accounts I ever read none of them mentioned any "winged angels" or "saints with halos around their heads" whatsoever.Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:00 am In addition to that, we now have decades of books, accounts, and movies about NDEs. Many people have become familiar with the accounts.
This, along with our cultural background, sets up a narrative framework for understanding any experience one might have near death.
1- Similar biology, similar brains
2- Similar culture
However, the cultural variability could be significant:
.. the non-western NDEs vary in several ways, particularly in the presence of specific
cultural–religious figures and the distinct absence of certain core features
identified in the dominant NDE prototype. There were notable similarities
between the experiences of the Mapuche people and that of Hawaiians,
with both having dominant themes of landmarks such as volcanoes and no
evidence of any life review, or visions of light. There were also similarities
between the experiences reported in Thailand and India where there did
not appear to be any reports of tunnels, landmarks and visions of light. In
addition, there did not appear to be a meeting of deceased acquaintances;
however, a strong presence of religious figures was noted. In the studies and
narratives reviewed, OBE were documented only when a study clearly
described the experience as OBE.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/d ... 1&type=pdf
Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
Thank you Jim Cross for being a voice of healthy skepticism in this forum.Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:50 pmTo be clear, I am accounting for the similar content of the experience to two separate things that work together.Eugene I wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:47 pmBefore Dr. Moody published his first book describing NDE accounts nobody knew about them, yet most of the accounts he described had the same features - the tunnel, the light, the deceased relatives etc. Also, if these experiences would be a result of Judeo-Christian background, people would be more likely to see the scenes we usually see in the church and religious paintings: winged angels, saints with halos etc (none of which ever had any "tunnels"), but that is not the case. From all NDE accounts I ever read none of them mentioned any "winged angels" or "saints with halos around their heads" whatsoever.Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:00 am In addition to that, we now have decades of books, accounts, and movies about NDEs. Many people have become familiar with the accounts.
This, along with our cultural background, sets up a narrative framework for understanding any experience one might have near death.
1- Similar biology, similar brains
2- Similar culture
However, the cultural variability could be significant:
.. the non-western NDEs vary in several ways, particularly in the presence of specific
cultural–religious figures and the distinct absence of certain core features
identified in the dominant NDE prototype. There were notable similarities
between the experiences of the Mapuche people and that of Hawaiians,
with both having dominant themes of landmarks such as volcanoes and no
evidence of any life review, or visions of light. There were also similarities
between the experiences reported in Thailand and India where there did
not appear to be any reports of tunnels, landmarks and visions of light. In
addition, there did not appear to be a meeting of deceased acquaintances;
however, a strong presence of religious figures was noted. In the studies and
narratives reviewed, OBE were documented only when a study clearly
described the experience as OBE.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/d ... 1&type=pdf
I love reading this forum, a lot of insightful comments and conversations, but without people like Jim Cross it often devolves into confirmation bias and circle jerking.
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Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
Yeah well, comments suggestive of 'circle jerking' seem more to do with cynicism than skepticism. Out of curiosity, are you then suggesting that a researcher like Dr. Bruce Greyson, in the interview referenced above, did not enter into his decades of investigation with healthy skepticism, and is also engaged in gullible confirmation bias? I think that most of the points being made here are just agreeing with Greyson when he states that scientific academia, with its focus being primarily about what can be measured and quantified in some objective way, as it currently stands, has no definitive explanation for these events. And hence it opens up the possibility that explanations taking into account a counter-materialist premise may just be worth considering, until some definitive scientific explanation comes about, if indeed it ever does.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
As the voice healthy skepticism, I think Greyson is well-intentioned and believes he is doing an objective, scientific investigation.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:46 pmYeah well, comments suggestive of 'circle jerking' seem more to do with cynicism than skepticism. Out of curiosity, are you then suggesting that a researcher like Dr. Bruce Greyson, in the interview referenced above, did not enter into his decades of investigation with healthy skepticism, and is also engaged in gullible confirmation bias? I think that most of the points being made here are just agreeing with Greyson when he states that scientific academia, with its focus being primarily about what can be measured and quantified in some objective way, as it currently stands, has no definitive explanation for these events. And hence it opens up the possibility that explanations taking into account a counter-materialist premise may just be worth considering, until some definitive scientific explanation comes about, if indeed it ever does.
However, what exactly are the "events" for which science has no explanation?
As even Parnia wrote, we still lack any definitive evidence of experience after blood flow is blocked to the brain. Retrospective studies have provided evidence that some people think it happened but then we have to deal with the possibilities of false or embellished memories (not from a deliberate intent to deceive but from the normal workings of human memory). Prospective studies, like Parnia's, have turned up nothing definitive.
That some people come back from near death with stories of various types isn't really in doubt and doesn't by itself break any conventional science. That the stories of different people have similar elements can be explained by similarities in brains, how the brain works when it shuts down, and similarities in cultural background that people use to interpret the experience. A native Hawaiian might tell us she entered a volcano while an evangelical from Indiana might report he saw Jesus.
Of course, there is still more science to do. Some of it may even be useful for saving more people who undergo cardiac address.
But there is nothing in the current evidence that shakes the foundations of materialistic science or requires a counter-materialist premise.
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Re: why denying the existence of The Light and The Tunnel among academia?
For starters, how about that event which started him on his investigation, for which he has found no scientific explanation?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.