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A Peculiar Question for Metaphysics
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:02 pm
by Robert Arvay
Here is a question which may strike you as peculiar at first, but if you can resist the temptation to dismiss it out of hand, it may lead you to some interesting metaphysical inquiry.
The question arose when, while visiting a friend, I glanced at his cat. Up until then, the cat had not seemed to pay much attention to me. However, it noticed that I was looking at it. The cat sat up and took notice of me.
Of course, I knew then, that the cat was looking at me. The question that came to me, and yes, I am a strange fellow, was, how did the cat know I could see it?
The answer may seem obvious. The cat could see my eyes (of course). But how does the cat know that MY eyes are comparable to its? Does the cat have any idea that it has eyes? It likely just takes for granted its own powers of vision, without ever questioning them, without ever wondering how vision works.
But—can it look at another creature, see its eyes, and connect those eyes with the cat’s own ability to see?
Okay, I know that there are physicalist explanations for this, but they all miss the heart of the question. I am assuming that, on THIS forum, people will think more deeply than to accept those explanations without further thought.
Does the cat know it has eyes? How does it know that our eyes are what enables us to see? What further implications are there to all this?
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Re: A Peculiar Question for Metaphysics
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:19 am
by crossvalidator
I will state what I understand. The observation you made about the cat's change in behaviour is real. It appears that change was caused by the interaction you had with the cat (we don't know - but seems likely)
This would imply there is some ripple in the cat's consciousness from your interaction with it. But I don't think I can say anything more than this. I would hold back from saying the cat interpreted your eyes as the window through which you see the world. That the cat has any idea what seeing is. I would never know what exact representations it holds in its head - I only see that it reacted to the eye locking. It's possible it could be as simple as the cat has evolved to detect eye locking as potential threat to its survival (through sheer repetition) - Or that it has a much more complex model in its head of what's going on in this interaction. I don't think we can ever know.
Re: A Peculiar Question for Metaphysics
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:39 am
by AshvinP
Robert Arvay wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:02 pm
Here is a question which may strike you as peculiar at first, but if you can resist the temptation to dismiss it out of hand, it may lead you to some interesting metaphysical inquiry.
The question arose when, while visiting a friend, I glanced at his cat. Up until then, the cat had not seemed to pay much attention to me. However, it noticed that I was looking at it. The cat sat up and took notice of me.
Of course, I knew then, that the cat was looking at me. The question that came to me, and yes, I am a strange fellow, was, how did the cat know I could see it?
The answer may seem obvious. The cat could see my eyes (of course). But how does the cat know that MY eyes are comparable to its? Does the cat have any idea that it has eyes? It likely just takes for granted its own powers of vision, without ever questioning them, without ever wondering how vision works.
But—can it look at another creature, see its eyes, and connect those eyes with the cat’s own ability to see?
Okay, I know that there are physicalist explanations for this, but they all miss the heart of the question. I am assuming that, on THIS forum, people will think more deeply than to accept those explanations without further thought.
Does the cat know it has eyes? How does it know that our eyes are what enables us to see? What further implications are there to all this?
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-
The cat is an individuated perspective of its group soul, who does not reside within a 'physical' body. A cat-perspective does not in itself understand the concept of "seeing/vision" in the way we do, but its group soul likely does. As I am sure you can tell, the further implications are many...
Re: A Peculiar Question for Metaphysics
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:15 am
by Soul_of_Shu
I should think this can be known from one's own experience. As infants, humans lock onto faces from day one, so clearly this is instinctive behaviour. And yet to question what role eyes play in perception of the consensus corporeal construct is surely a function of metacognition and acquired education. I see no reason to conclude that cats are metacognitive, such that they are aware how dreamtime perceptions with eyes shut differ from perceptions with eyes open. Indeed, not even humans while sleeping question how they are seeing objectified dreamtime events with eyes closed. Furthermore, what to make of so-called OBE accounts when one is apparently seeing consensus events, during which, in my case at least, one is not pondering what eyes have to do with it.
Re: A Peculiar Question for Metaphysics
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:04 pm
by Soul_of_Shu
I've another curiosity about cats, dating back to a time when I kept company with them: why is it that while I would gaze out a window transfixed and enamoured by a sunset, rich with archetypal meaning, the cat would leap onto the window sill and seek to divert my attention toward petting it, while it seemingly could not care less about sunsets, if anything more interested in pawing at a fly corpse found there, as if it might come back to life?
Re: A Peculiar Question for Metaphysics
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:19 pm
by AshvinP
AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:39 am
Robert Arvay wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:02 pm
Here is a question which may strike you as peculiar at first, but if you can resist the temptation to dismiss it out of hand, it may lead you to some interesting metaphysical inquiry.
The question arose when, while visiting a friend, I glanced at his cat. Up until then, the cat had not seemed to pay much attention to me. However, it noticed that I was looking at it. The cat sat up and took notice of me.
Of course, I knew then, that the cat was looking at me. The question that came to me, and yes, I am a strange fellow, was, how did the cat know I could see it?
The answer may seem obvious. The cat could see my eyes (of course). But how does the cat know that MY eyes are comparable to its? Does the cat have any idea that it has eyes? It likely just takes for granted its own powers of vision, without ever questioning them, without ever wondering how vision works.
But—can it look at another creature, see its eyes, and connect those eyes with the cat’s own ability to see?
Okay, I know that there are physicalist explanations for this, but they all miss the heart of the question. I am assuming that, on THIS forum, people will think more deeply than to accept those explanations without further thought.
Does the cat know it has eyes? How does it know that our eyes are what enables us to see? What further implications are there to all this?
-
-
The cat is an individuated perspective of its group soul, who does not reside within a 'physical' body. A cat-perspective does not in itself understand the concept of "seeing/vision" in the way we do, but its group soul likely does. As I am sure you can tell, the further implications are many...
A caveat to the above - I am not sure if the cat group-soul would understand the concept of "seeing" in the way we do right now. Our understanding is intimately linked with physical corporeality, which the cat group-soul lacks. However, I believe our potential future understanding of all physical senses will be more akin to that of souls residing outside of physical realm.
Re: A Peculiar Question for Metaphysics
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:16 pm
by Ben Iscatus
What evidence is there for a cat group soul? Is there a slug group soul?
Re: A Peculiar Question for Metaphysics
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:47 pm
by Jim Cross
This seems related to the theory of mind. There is some debate over whether and which other animals have it.
The existence of theory of mind in animals is controversial. On the one hand, one hypothesis proposes that some animals have complex cognitive processes which allow them to attribute mental states to other individuals, sometimes called "mind-reading". A second, more parsimonious, hypothesis proposes that animals lack these skills and that they depend instead on more simple learning processes such as associative learning;[4] or in other words, they are simply behaviour-reading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind_in_animals
It might exist in a number of different primates, some birds, and various other animals to one degree or another.
Mirror neurons may be involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_ne ... ry_of_mind
I'm convinced my cat is metacognitive.
Re: A Peculiar Question for Metaphysics
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:22 pm
by Soul_of_Shu
Jim Cross wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:47 pmI'm convinced my cat is metacognitive.
So much for Jim being our voice of unbiased skepticism
Re: A Peculiar Question for Metaphysics
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:05 pm
by AshvinP
Ben Iscatus wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:16 pm
What evidence is there for a cat group soul? Is there a slug group soul?
The collective intellegence of many such animals, while each individual member does not seem to function at that high level, is only accounted for by the group-soul IMO. The real evidence for any of these questions would be supersensible knowledge. Behavioral psychology may contribute some basic understanding, but otherwise we are purely speculating. Beyond that, everything about the way Nature and living beings are structured according to archetypal patterns also implies such group souls. Until the modern age, this view was the default (philosophical realism).