Philosophical Speculations

Sometimes I get the feeling you are not quite sure what the metaphysical definitions "materialism" and "idealism" even mean.

There you go again. My criticism is lazy and apparently has been even before you in All-Knowing Knowledge even knew of it. Who knows? Maybe even before I had made the criticism it was already hopelessly lazy. And, of course, all these nuances of idealism are well beyond any limited ability I might have to understand them. I should probably just give up. I'll never grasp your Infinite Metaphysics.

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:24 pm

Sometimes I get the feeling you are not quite sure what the metaphysical definitions "materialism" and "idealism" even mean.

There you go again. My criticism is lazy and apparently has been even before you in All-Knowing Knowledge even knew of it. Who knows? Maybe even before I had made the criticism it was already hopelessly lazy. And, of course, all these nuances of idealism are well beyond any limited ability I might have to understand them. I should probably just give up. I'll never grasp your Infinite Metaphysics.

I'm telling you the opposite of "giving up" - you should probably just put some effort into understanding idealism better. But seeing as how you have been at this for years and seem perfectly comfortable recycling the same few objections to idealism over and over, no matter what anyone responds, I have a suspicion all of this is in vain. Jim, don't pretend like this is our first interaction. I tried the reasonable, methodical, logical argumentative approach with you multiple times, but you simply ignore every point I make and change the argument, obfuscate, and mischaracterize, just as you are doing now. I can provide you plenty of examples to jog your memory if you really them.

I just had a vision or fantasy of a future time when the evolution of consciousness had so unfolded (I choose not to use the word 'progressed') that the entire canon of materialist science might seem as mysterious as other old storylines might seem to us 'moderns'. The vital question for the scholar of the future might not be "were they right" but rather "how did they use their limited knowledge?" Who knows? I'm neither a fortune teller or a philosopher.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:23 pm

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:24 pm

Sometimes I get the feeling you are not quite sure what the metaphysical definitions "materialism" and "idealism" even mean.

There you go again. My criticism is lazy and apparently has been even before you in All-Knowing Knowledge even knew of it. Who knows? Maybe even before I had made the criticism it was already hopelessly lazy. And, of course, all these nuances of idealism are well beyond any limited ability I might have to understand them. I should probably just give up. I'll never grasp your Infinite Metaphysics.

I'm telling you the opposite of "giving up" - you should probably just put some effort into understanding idealism better. But seeing as how you have been at this for years and seem perfectly comfortable recycling the same few objections to idealism over and over, no matter what anyone responds, I have a suspicion all of this is in vain. Jim, don't pretend like this is our first interaction. I tried the reasonable, methodical, logical argumentative approach with you multiple times, but you simply ignore every point I make and change the argument, obfuscate, and mischaracterize, just as you are doing now. I can provide you plenty of examples to jog your memory if you really them.

Yeah, bizarrely you make no actual argument. Mostly you just declare then say anyone who doesn't accept it should try harder.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:27 pm I just had a vision or fantasy of a future time when the evolution of consciousness had so unfolded (I choose not to use the word 'progressed') that the entire canon of materialist science might seem as mysterious as other old storylines might seem to us 'moderns'. The vital question for the scholar of the future might not be "were they right" but rather "how did they use their limited knowledge?" Who knows? I'm neither a fortune teller or a philosopher.

I thought you liked old storylines.

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:33 am

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:27 pm I just had a vision or fantasy of a future time when the evolution of consciousness had so unfolded (I choose not to use the word 'progressed') that the entire canon of materialist science might seem as mysterious as other old storylines might seem to us 'moderns'. The vital question for the scholar of the future might not be "were they right" but rather "how did they use their limited knowledge?" Who knows? I'm neither a fortune teller or a philosopher.

I thought you liked old storylines.

I do. There's much of value in all of them, which is why we need to transcend-and-include. Hopefully, there will be someone who lived to tell the story.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:27 pm I just had a vision or fantasy of a future time when the evolution of consciousness had so unfolded (I choose not to use the word 'progressed')

I really like the word "unfolded" instead of "progressed". I think it's apt when thinking about spirituality throughout the ages. Another might be "blossomed" where the beauty within becomes manifest. Was the Spiritual Presence dormant until certain worldviews emerged? Of course not! Each age has its own situation and worldviews. The Spiritual Presence unfolds and becomes manifest within that milieu.

Steve Petermann wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:42 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:27 pm I just had a vision or fantasy of a future time when the evolution of consciousness had so unfolded (I choose not to use the word 'progressed')

I really like the word "unfolded" instead of "progressed". I think it's apt when thinking about spirituality throughout the ages. Another might be "blossomed" where the beauty within becomes manifest. Was the Spiritual Presence dormant until certain worldviews emerged? Of course not! Each age has its own situation and worldviews. The Spiritual Presence unfolds and becomes manifest within that milieu.

Thanks Steve. I admit that I'm prejudiced against the word 'progress', because it's so vulnerable to arrogance, even though I believe in the possibility of some sort of movement toward increased goodness in the world. Mostly, I see evolution as a process of change -- something gained and something lost in an incredible dance of life. For me the bottom line is attaining some sort of dynamic balance, a middle way of walking on oft slippery ground.

Steve Petermann wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:42 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:27 pm I just had a vision or fantasy of a future time when the evolution of consciousness had so unfolded (I choose not to use the word 'progressed')

I really like the word "unfolded" instead of "progressed". I think it's apt when thinking about spirituality throughout the ages. Another might be "blossomed" where the beauty within becomes manifest. Was the Spiritual Presence dormant until certain worldviews emerged? Of course not! Each age has its own situation and worldviews. The Spiritual Presence unfolds and becomes manifest within that milieu.

Steve - have you looked at the 'evolution' of spiritual mythology and its expressions within human culture, i.e. arts, philosophy, science, institutional religion, etc.? I think "unfolded" is a fine word as well, if the objection is "progressed" means the earlier forms were "bad" and the later ones were "good", but we need to be less concerned with the terminology and more concerned with what actually happened back then and what continues to happen now.

Steve Petermann wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:42 pmI really like the word "unfolded" instead of "progressed". I think it's apt when thinking about spirituality throughout the ages. Another might be "blossomed" where the beauty within becomes manifest. Was the Spiritual Presence dormant until certain worldviews emerged? Of course not! Each age has its own situation and worldviews. The Spiritual Presence unfolds and becomes manifest within that milieu.

For sure, the term progress, simply meaning to move onward, has taken on the connotation of moving from some deficient state to an improved one. Does this apply to the larval form metamorphosing into the imago form? Is a butterfly an 'improvement' over a caterpillar? Surely not, unless that meaning is projected onto it, as they each play an integral role in an ongoing process, a nonlinear cyclical unfolding of egg>nymph>chrysalis>imago>egg again, and on and on it goes, all the while an ever-evolving, ever-changing, ever-feedback looping, cyclical proceeding of never-ending novelty, any telos of which is ... well your guess is as good as mine. But to get this sort of back on topic, in one NDE revelation I recall it was divined as an infinitude of Art for Art's sake ... in which case, best get used to it.