Rudolf Steiner: Vaccines to Kill The Soul?!

[Soul_of_Shu]

While wary of it succumbing to the trigger-effect, with all the us-vs-them politicking about whether to vax or not to vax, QR code passport or no passport, travel or no travel, etc, I'm offering this trialogue here, out of deep appreciation for its nuanced exploration/deconstruction of the dominant mythos of our time, the myth of the Machine as Saviour, beginning with the Tower of Babel, and the question of how to discern where we're at in terms of it either being more powerful and intractable than ever, or now, at the teetering height of its imposing edifice, inevitably foundering towards its long overdue decomposition and demise, so integral to its metamorphosis and transfiguration ... and, dare I mention, what role does integral stage Thinking play in that phase transition?

[Jim Cross]

While wary of it succumbing to the trigger-effect, with all the us-vs-them politicking about whether to vax or not to vax, QR code passport or no passport, travel or no travel, etc, I'm offering this trialogue here, out of deep appreciation for its nuanced exploration/deconstruction of the dominant mythos of our time, the myth of the Machine as Saviour, beginning with the Tower of Babel, and the question of how to discern where we're at in terms of it either being more powerful and intractable than ever, or now, at the teetering height of its imposing edifice, inevitably foundering towards its long overdue decomposition and demise, so integral to its metamorphosis and transfiguration ... and, dare I mention, what role does integral stage Thinking play in that phase transition?

This seems like it is wading deep into political waters.

If people want to refuse to accept the medical science on vaccines, they should also refuse (or be refused ) other medical help when they get sick. Of course, it can be a personal choice but it goes beyond personal choice if the person either makes others sick or consumes scarce medical resources when they get sick.

[Soul_of_Shu]

While wary of it succumbing to the trigger-effect, with all the us-vs-them politicking about whether to vax or not to vax, QR code passport or no passport, travel or no travel, etc, I'm offering this trialogue here, out of deep appreciation for its nuanced exploration/deconstruction of the dominant mythos of our time, the myth of the Machine as Saviour, beginning with the Tower of Babel, and the question of how to discern where we're at in terms of it either being more powerful and intractable than ever, or now, at the teetering height of its imposing edifice, inevitably foundering towards its long overdue decomposition and demise, so integral to its metamorphosis and transfiguration ... and, dare I mention, what role does integral stage Thinking play in that phase transition?

This seems like it is wading deep into political waters.

If people want to refuse to accept the medical science on vaccines, they should also refuse (or be refused ) other medical help when they get sick. Of course, it can be a personal choice but it goes beyond personal choice if the person either makes others sick or consumes scarce medical resources when they get sick.

Thanks for a perfect example of just the kind of conversation this topic is not intended to bring about. Did you actually listen to or give any consideration to the example of the kind of conversation that is offered instead, as pointed to in the opening post ?

[Jim Cross]

While wary of it succumbing to the trigger-effect, with all the us-vs-them politicking about whether to vax or not to vax, QR code passport or no passport, travel or no travel, etc, I'm offering this trialogue here, out of deep appreciation for its nuanced exploration/deconstruction of the dominant mythos of our time, the myth of the Machine as Saviour, beginning with the Tower of Babel, and the question of how to discern where we're at in terms of it either being more powerful and intractable than ever, or now, at the teetering height of its imposing edifice, inevitably foundering towards its long overdue decomposition and demise, so integral to its metamorphosis and transfiguration ... and, dare I mention, what role does integral stage Thinking play in that phase transition?

This seems like it is wading deep into political waters.

If people want to refuse to accept the medical science on vaccines, they should also refuse (or be refused ) other medical help when they get sick. Of course, it can be a personal choice but it goes beyond personal choice if the person either makes others sick or consumes scarce medical resources when they get sick.

Thanks for a perfect example of just the kind of conversation this topic is not intended to bring about. Did you actually listen to or give any consideration to the example of the kind of conversation that is offered instead, as pointed to in the opening post ?

I looked at some of the video and in the part I looked at I saw somebody complaining about leftists being authoritarian and about lockdowns for the unvaccinated. So the video has political content. I'm surprised that you as the moderator posted it. I think if Lou (for example) had posted something similar, you would have removed it or at least heavily criticized it.

There is a very human tendency to try to find meaning and pattern in everything so it isn't surprising that there are some people who feel a need to expand any semi-random, unpredictable event like a pandemic into something with significance. There is no more metaphysical significance to vaccines than there was to the first rock sliver that Homo erectus broke off to create a scraper to gut an antelope.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I looked at some of the video and in the part I looked at I saw somebody complaining about leftists being authoritarian and about lockdowns for the unvaccinated. So the video has political content. I'm surprised that you as the moderator posted it. I think if Lou (for example) had posted something similar, you would have removed it or at least heavily criticized it.

There is a very human tendency to try to find meaning and pattern in everything so it isn't surprising that there are some people who feel a need to expand any semi-random, unpredictable event like a pandemic into something with significance. There is no more metaphysical significance to vaccines than there was to the first rock sliver that Homo erectus broke off to create a scraper to gut an antelope.

Sigh ... Clearly you didn't get to the part where that narrow political take is expanded into a much more nuanced context, that explains why any narrow us-vs-them political take is so problematic. As is so often the case, our attempt at meaningful interaction has succumbed to the usual divergent way of approaching these conversations that I don't know where to even begin to bridge the gap. Best move on to another thread, not there's likely to be much less of a disconnect.

[Jim Cross]

I looked at some of the video and in the part I looked at I saw somebody complaining about leftists being authoritarian and about lockdowns for the unvaccinated. So the video has political content. I'm surprised that you as the moderator posted it. I think if Lou (for example) had posted something similar, you would have removed it or at least heavily criticized it.

There is a very human tendency to try to find meaning and pattern in everything so it isn't surprising that there are some people who feel a need to expand any semi-random, unpredictable event like a pandemic into something with significance. There is no more metaphysical significance to vaccines than there was to the first rock sliver that Homo erectus broke off to create a scraper to gut an antelope.

Sigh ... Clearly you didn't get to the part where that narrow political take is expanded into a much more nuanced context, that explains why any narrow us-vs-them political take is so problematic. As is so often the case, our attempt at meaningful interaction has succumbed to the usual divergent way of approaching these conversations that I don't know where to even begin to bridge the gap. Best move on to another thread, not there's likely to be much less of a disconnect.

"us-vs-them"

Do you think having a good chat would make a difference?

It's hard to have a conversation when there isn't any agreement on the facts, when there is a fundamental mistrust of all scientific knowledge and expertise. There aren't really two sides to the argument. There's one side that bases itself on facts and trying to discover them and there's the other side that believes whatever it wants. That's the "us-vs-them".

I don't believe the experts or the scientists are always right. Mistakes are made. But many of the measures taken by governments have saved lives.

A new review in the BMJ suggests public health measures such as mask-wearing, universal lockdowns, and temporary shutdowns of businesses and schools helped prevent further severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) transmission. Universal lockdowns and mandatory quarantine measures were connected to a decrease in coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) cases and deaths than those countries that did not implement these orders.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20211 ... dence.aspx

What do the guys on the video think? They think all of these measures are just part of the conspiracy leading us on a mechanistic slide to technological utopia. Who's the "us" and who's the "them"?

[Soul_of_Shu]

What do the guys on the video think? They think all of these measures are just part of the conspiracy leading us on a mechanistic slide to technological utopia. Who's the "us" and who's the "them"?

Actually, they explicitly state that they don't think this to be the case. Somehow we seem to have watched two different conversations, the version you listened to completely missing the nuanced context in which all this was explored.

[AshvinP]

While wary of it succumbing to the trigger-effect, with all the us-vs-them politicking about whether to vax or not to vax, QR code passport or no passport, travel or no travel, etc, I'm offering this trialogue here, out of deep appreciation for its nuanced exploration/deconstruction of the dominant mythos of our time, the myth of the Machine as Saviour, beginning with the Tower of Babel, and the question of how to discern where we're at in terms of it either being more powerful and intractable than ever, or now, at the teetering height of its imposing edifice, inevitably foundering towards its long overdue decomposition and demise, so integral to its metamorphosis and transfiguration ... and, dare I mention, what role does integral stage Thinking play in that phase transition?

I am writing a short essay on this myth of machine as savior (or terminator) in the context of the new Matrix movie. Suffice to say, we are confronting forces within ourselves which do not want us to concretize the spiritual and ascend into higher worlds and will stop at nothing to 'win' our souls, or to convince us to make a Faustian bargain and sell our souls to the lowest bidder. The self-deceptions are becoming multi-layered now and that's why it's so important to pay attention and start Thinking through these cultural phenomena in an objective and rigorous way. That is how we can redeem the darkness within, but it's also missed by nearly everyone for many reasons we have discussed here, and without that living Spirit working within us, we have no choice but to project the good and evil somewhere "out there" in the physical world and regressively block our own path to overcoming our fragmented and mechanistic existence.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I am writing a short essay on this myth of machine as savior (or terminator) in the context of the new Matrix movie. Suffice to say, we are confronting forces within ourselves which do not want us to concretize the spiritual and ascend into higher worlds and will stop at nothing to 'win' our souls, or to convince us to make a Faustian bargain and sell our souls to the lowest bidder. The self-deceptions are becoming multi-layered now and that's why it's so important to pay attention and start Thinking through these cultural phenomena in an objective and rigorous way. That is how we can redeem the darkness within, but it's also missed by nearly everyone for many reasons we have discussed here, and without that living Spirit working within us, we have no choice but to project the good and evil somewhere "out there" in the physical world and regressively block our own path to overcoming our fragmented and mechanistic existence.

Looking forward to the essay, and thanks for focusing on, and returning the topic to the kind of nuanced approach I was aiming for here.

[Lou Gold]

What do the guys on the video think? They think all of these measures are just part of the conspiracy leading us on a mechanistic slide to technological utopia. Who's the "us" and who's the "them"?

Actually, they explicitly state that they don't think this to be the case. Somehow we seem to have watched two different conversations, the version you listened to completely missing the nuanced context in which all this was explored.

Thanks, Dana, for this wonderful nuanced discussion in which both speakers reject simplistic conspiracy theories. By the way, no need for anyone to feel sorry for "poor 'ol Lou" whose posts have occasionally been censored as not yet sufficiently nuanced. I was aware of this issue of timing but it is in my nature to attempt to provoke a future response such as is perhaps unfolding here. So, just in case of doubt, I like the way moderation works on this forum even when it might seem that I'm victimized by it. I say VIVA! for the process.

I liked the video, especially in the following ways:

1) The underlying intention, which was clearly resonating for me, seemed to be to develop better questions more than stating solutions. In my preferred lingo it seemed to focus on way-finding under the uncertainties of not knowing fundamental reality.

2) The Tower of Babel myth was used to challenge a possible or potential idolatry of an ascent bias, which is surely uncertain territory given human limitations as they presently exist. I'm not arguing against having an aspiration but rather for the need to remember it's about tests all the way up and turtles all the way down.

3) I really liked the shared embrace of a Great Mysteriousness, not as a rejection of curiosity and learning but as something to become more comfortable and friendly with, including the mystery of how others might possibly rationally think in ways strange or foreign to us.

4) I loved the wind-up theme of becoming, "Architects of the Dream," which reminded me of the century-plus ongoing building of Antonio Gaudi's Sagrada Família, which was scheduled to be completed next year, marking the 140th anniversary of his death. The plan has been delayed indefinitely due to the pandemic closure of visitation, which had been the ongoing revenue source funding construction. Recently on the Day of the Holy Mother Virgin of Conception (Dec 8, 2021), a star was mounted on the completed second highest tower keeping the dream alive. Perhaps presciently, Gaudi designed the highest tower to be one meter lower than the natural ridgeline surrounding Barcelona, explaining that it would be an idolatry to build higher than what God had provided. And so we return to the precautionary myth whose modern version may be, "If you want God to laugh, tell your plan."