Philosophical Speculations

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:16 pm My interest here is not the virus per se but the so-called "prism," which suggests that we have entered an era of accelerated novelty known as 'paradigm change' or 'phase shift' or 'great initiation' or whatever descriptor you favor. If novelty is truly the new normal, then so will be uncertainty, which is the handmaiden of the new birth. The challenge is to hold a calm balance rather than a culture war. The promise of the child is great and so are the tricks and traps of inevitable domestication, peer acceptance/rejection, personal ontological security/insecurity, etc. In future times, one's comfort with mask-wearing (for example) may boil down to whatever the child is taught now. IF covid follows a flu-like pattern it will settle into a culturally accepted normal including substantial vax and protection, sizable non-compliance and less political saliency. I'm not minimizing the risks, challenges and dangers but instead suggesting a general trend into more and more novel uncertainties. Personally, I've been focusing on how to comfortably hold/accept the Great Mysteriousness AND be aware of the time-honored aphorism, "Trust in Allah and tie up your camel."

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:25 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:16 pm My interest here is not the virus per se but the so-called "prism," which suggests that we have entered an era of accelerated novelty known as 'paradigm change' or 'phase shift' or 'great initiation' or whatever descriptor you favor. If novelty is truly the new normal, then so will be uncertainty, which is the handmaiden of the new birth. The challenge is to hold a calm balance rather than a culture war. The promise of the child is great and so are the tricks and traps of inevitable domestication, peer acceptance/rejection, personal ontological security/insecurity, etc. In future times, one's comfort with mask-wearing (for example) may boil down to whatever the child is taught now. IF covid follows a flu-like pattern it will settle into a culturally accepted normal including substantial vax and protection, sizable non-compliance and less political saliency. I'm not minimizing the risks, challenges and dangers but instead suggesting a general trend into more and more novel uncertainties. Personally, I've been focusing on how to comfortably hold/accept the Great Mysteriousness AND be aware of the time-honored aphorism, "Trust in Allah and tie up your camel."

Prism also means something that distorts.

I think we are on a hike and we think the destination is right over the next hill but every time we cross a hill there is just another hill. We don't live in exceptional times although probably every age thinks it does.

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:18 pm Some day we will end up in a different place. That place may be the Borg world or it may be a world of Bodhisattvas. I would prefer the latter so I would be interested in hearing good ideas on how to get there from where we are that are more than magical thinking.

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:18 pm I'm glad you have provided this perspective.
So you can't stop the march of the machine. The machine may stop itself if we mess up badly enough but, otherwise, it will keep going through crises after crises. Some day we will end up in a different place. That place may be the Borg world or it may be a world of Bodhisattvas. I would prefer the latter so I would be interested in hearing good ideas on how to get there from where we are that are more than magical thinking.

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:40 pm Lou.

Not same-old, same-old but different-new, different-new.

Shu,

Compare the effect on the world of the computer, Christianity (or Islam or Buddhism), writings of Steiner, a random daydream.

The computer has had effects well beyond its idea. Nobody could have predicted YouTube directly from the idea of the computer. Religions are based on ideas but only have effect as they mobilize people and change behaviors. Steiner's writings have an effect but they mobilize fewer people so the effect is less than that of a major religion. A random daydream comes and goes with little or no effect on the world.

To have effect ideas must be actualized. Ideas by themselves will not have an effect. Technology, which is the externalization of ideas, can surpass its own idea.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:10 pm

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:40 pm Lou.

Not same-old, same-old but different-new, different-new.

Shu,

Compare the effect on the world of the computer, Christianity (or Islam or Buddhism), writings of Steiner, a random daydream.

The computer has had effects well beyond its idea. Nobody could have predicted YouTube directly from the idea of the computer. Religions are based on ideas but only have effect as they mobilize people and change behaviors. Steiner's writings have an effect but they mobilize fewer people so the effect is less than that of a major religion. A random daydream comes and goes with little or no effect on the world.

To have effect ideas must be actualized. Ideas by themselves will not have an effect. Technology, which is the externalization of ideas, can surpass its own idea.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:51 pm

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:40 pm Lou.

Not same-old, same-old but different-new, different-new.

Shu,

Compare the effect on the world of the computer, Christianity (or Islam or Buddhism), writings of Steiner, a random daydream.

The computer has had effects well beyond its idea. Nobody could have predicted YouTube directly from the idea of the computer. Religions are based on ideas but only have effect as they mobilize people and change behaviors. Steiner's writings have an effect but they mobilize fewer people so the effect is less than that of a major religion. A random daydream comes and goes with little or no effect on the world.

To have effect ideas must be actualized. Ideas by themselves will not have an effect. Technology, which is the externalization of ideas, can surpass its own idea.

Jim,

Every institution you encounter in the Western world (which practically encompasses the entire globe now), including all universities and scientific organizations, is grounded in Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian ideas, and those ideas will continue to have influence regardless of what happens specifically to machine technology. The real question here is which one is necessary for the other. Ideas are necessary for computers (and everything else you experience), computers are not necessary for ideas.

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:31 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:10 pm

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:40 pm Lou.

Not same-old, same-old but different-new, different-new.

Shu,

Compare the effect on the world of the computer, Christianity (or Islam or Buddhism), writings of Steiner, a random daydream.

The computer has had effects well beyond its idea. Nobody could have predicted YouTube directly from the idea of the computer. Religions are based on ideas but only have effect as they mobilize people and change behaviors. Steiner's writings have an effect but they mobilize fewer people so the effect is less than that of a major religion. A random daydream comes and goes with little or no effect on the world.

To have effect ideas must be actualized. Ideas by themselves will not have an effect. Technology, which is the externalization of ideas, can surpass its own idea.

OK. Thanks Jim. I have no reason to challenge your experience as yours but I will note that it seems rather like "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose," which offers nothing novel, just history repeating itself.

My take is that globalization with its concomitant planetary boundaries is producing something profoundly new, namely limits that will force or drive changes at the species level. In my view you are correct to the extent you are saying "different human, different technology." Cyborgs are becoming actual-factual-real. This would surely be, in my view, a difference making the difference. But I don't know that you are saying this from your perspective. Is it the way it is for you?

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:57 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:31 pm

Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:10 pm

OK. Thanks Jim. I have no reason to challenge your experience as yours but I will note that it seems rather like "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose," which offers nothing novel, just history repeating itself.

My take is that globalization with its concomitant planetary boundaries is producing something profoundly new, namely limits that will force or drive changes at the species level. In my view you are correct to the extent you are saying "different human, different technology." Cyborgs are becoming actual-factual-real. This would surely be, in my view, a difference making the difference. But I don't know that you are saying this from your perspective. Is it the way it is for you?

I agree mostly but I don't our time is all that unique. Humans careen from crises to crises with a little peace and calm in between.