Cleric's Responses to Mystical Metaphysics (or How to Make a Logical Argument)

[Soul_of_Shu]

Steiner's philosophy is a salad of ideas that he adopted from all over the place - Hagel, Goethe, medieval esoterics, Theosophy, astrology, German racism and you name it, and because of that, obviously many of his formulations and insights have some validity and merits. But overall, his philosophy belongs to the area of deletant-level pseudo-religion-philosophies along with Theosophy, Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, Galactic Federation channeling and alike. If you listen to Galactic Federation channelers, they talk about enhanced awareness, unconditional love, living from the heart and many other wonderful things, and who would deny that? But that alone does not make their overall paradigm any more valid.

In this latest episode of Curt does Leo part two, even if one doesn't have 7 hours to spare, or any inspired inclination to devote much time at all to it, I do suggest to at least watch the initial discussion after Curt's intro, between the 4:30 - 19.00 minute mark, and that we here keep in mind and take to heart the well-intentioned reflections offered therein, when we are engaging with each other here.

[AshvinP]

Steiner's philosophy is a salad of ideas that he adopted from all over the place - Hagel, Goethe, medieval esoterics, Theosophy, astrology, German racism and you name it, and because of that, obviously many of his formulations and insights have some validity and merits. But overall, his philosophy belongs to the area of deletant-level pseudo-religion-philosophies along with Theosophy, Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, Galactic Federation channeling and alike. If you listen to Galactic Federation channelers, they talk about enhanced awareness, unconditional love, living from the heart and many other wonderful things, and who would deny that? But that alone does not make their overall paradigm any more valid.

Well, even if that was true, at least he actually reads someone before making philosophical arguments. I am now thinking it's unlikely you have even read BK's books, as your arguments here are 100% antithetical to all forms of idealism and nondual tradition. They are materialist to the core - "manifestations of the mind" are "fantasies", spiritual claims are all fanatical, everyone has their own "space of awareness", we can never know anything outside of what we have directly perceived (unless of course we are you... then we are allowed to speculate), and if we ever happen to experience something with transcendent meaning, which brings any purpose and motivation to our lives, we should go speak to a Freudian psychiatrist immediately.

[AshvinP]

Indeed, I have no comprehensive knowledge of the disciplines the above quotes refer to. However, if I were to feel truly inspired to study those disciplines, I would delve into it with no lack of effort, however difficult it may be. But I doubt that without such inspiration, it would ever make much sense. I feel much the same about Steiner's ideas on astrology, Atlantis, Lemuria, etc. For whatever reason, these aspects of his ideation just don't inspire this imagination. And frankly, I don't even care if he is just simply wrong about those aspects. But that in no way undermines or detracts from those aspects that do inspire this imagination, which I then make the effort to explore. So I'm curious as to what your take is on why one may feel deeply compelled to explore some aspects, but not others. If after exploring PoF, it doesn't naturally lead to being inspired to explore the astrological/zodiac cosmology, or the ruminations about Atlantis and Lemuria, is something crucial missed?

As we wait on Cleric's response, my 2 cents - one of my favorite quotes from Steiner is the following because it rings so powerfully true:

What a pitiful creature man would be if nature offered him satisfaction from outside! All lamentations about an existence that does not satisfy us, about this hard world, must disappear before the thought that no power in the world could satisfy us if we ourselves did not first lend it that magical power by which it uplifts and gladdens us. Satisfaction must come to us out of what we make of things, out of our own creations. Only that is worthy of free beings.

- Rudolf Steiner, Goethean Science (1897)

Steiner is so uplifting because he doesn't just throw out platitudes in new age "self-help" fashion, but actually means very literally everything he writes. It is all like ancient Greek drama for him - we are truly participating in all of the most epic tales of human spiritual history by observing and thinking of them. I don't think you are alone with astrology, Atlantis, etc. - very few reasoning people, including myself, would feel any initial resonance with such stories, especially given the way they have been employed by many other "new age" spiritual systems. But, for me personally, it was simply a matter of cutting out all the middlemen we like to rely on, the YouTube commentators and what not, and reading Steiner's words themselves. The undeniable power of the inner logic at work makes all intellectual cynicisms pale in comparison. But that must be built from the ground up, so if we are actually skipping over most of PoF, and Goethean Science, and Riddles of Philosophy, and Theosophy, and many other lectures with similar content, then we are just rigging the die so that we will always crap out. What you are doing right now is commendable - asking genuine questions with a genuine desire for answers. And I am sure Cleric will have some more great ones for you.

[AshvinP]

Indeed, I have no comprehensive knowledge of the disciplines the above quotes refer to. However, if I were to feel truly inspired to study those disciplines, I would delve into it with no lack of effort, however difficult it may be. But I doubt that without such inspiration, it would ever make much sense. I feel much the same about Steiner's ideas on astrology, Atlantis, Lemuria, etc. For whatever reason, these aspects of his ideation just don't inspire this imagination. And frankly, I don't even care if he is just simply wrong about those aspects. But that in no way undermines or detracts from those aspects that do inspire this imagination, which I then make the effort to explore. So I'm curious as to what your take is on why one may feel deeply compelled to explore some aspects, but not others. If after exploring PoF, it doesn't naturally lead to being inspired to explore the astrological/zodiac cosmology, or the ruminations about Atlantis and Lemuria, is something crucial missed?

As we wait on Cleric's response, my 2 cents - one of my favorite quotes from Steiner is the following because it rings so powerfully true:

What a pitiful creature man would be if nature offered him satisfaction from outside! All lamentations about an existence that does not satisfy us, about this hard world, must disappear before the thought that no power in the world could satisfy us if we ourselves did not first lend it that magical power by which it uplifts and gladdens us. Satisfaction must come to us out of what we make of things, out of our own creations. Only that is worthy of free beings.

- Rudolf Steiner, Goethean Science (1897)

Steiner is so uplifting because he doesn't just throw out platitudes in new age "self-help" fashion, but actually means very literally everything he writes. It is all like ancient Greek drama for him - we are truly participating in all of the most epic tales of human spiritual history by observing and thinking of them. I don't think you are alone with astrology, Atlantis, etc. - very few reasoning people, including myself, would feel any initial resonance with such stories, especially given the way they have been employed by many other "new age" spiritual systems. But, for me personally, it was simply a matter of cutting out all the middlemen we like to rely on, the YouTube commentators and what not, and reading Steiner's words themselves. The undeniable power of the inner logic at work makes all intellectual cynicisms pale in comparison. But that must be built from the ground up, so if we are actually skipping over most of PoF, and Goethean Science, and Riddles of Philosophy, and Theosophy, and many other lectures with similar content, then we are just rigging the die so that we will always crap out. What you are doing right now is commendable - asking genuine questions with a genuine desire for answers. And I am sure Cleric will have some more great ones for you.

One more thing - by now you have seen Cleric and myself make many arguments for the "metamorphic progression" of Consciousness-Spirit-Thinking. I am not sure how you feel about the evidence and conclusions, but clearly we feel it is practically beyond reproach from all that we have considered. If we don't get too caught on the labels of "Atlantis, Lemuria, etc." and the automatic associations we make, then it is nearly impossible to deny that some stage of evolution like Lemuria and Atlantis would have occurred for the Earth if we also want to hold to the metamorphic progression consistently. I talked about this briefly at beginning of Part II of latest myth essay. The qualitative numerology is a very important aspect to keep in mind as well when exploring the Cosmic evolution.

Now let us briefly note that the soul-qualities at the dawn of the fourth epoch were not only reflecting the emergence of self-consciousness in our current age, but also mirroring an even larger arc of the Spirit's descent through seven Ages in which our current age is fractally nested. Likewise, there is a still larger arc of the Spirit through seven Cycles in which the seven Ages are nested, and an even larger arc of seven Aeons. It is well beyond our humble scope here to venture out into these pitch black realms of our collective subconscious, but we should keep in mind our current Age is not the only one or the last one, and we are dealing with truly epic 'territories' and 'timescales' when it comes to the Spirit's involution (descent into the physical sense-world) and evolution (ascent back to spiritual realms). Just as our current Age has seven epochs, it is only one of seven other Ages which are nested within the broader sevenfold relations mentioned above. Our current Aeon, Cycle, and Age are all the Central fourth stage in these sevenfold relations, with threefold essential relations mirrored across each 'side' by the fourth stage. We are now exploring the Central 4th epoch of our current Age, which is the reflecting Mirror itself.

[Eugene I]

Dana - I know what you are thinking now, and I will obviously play by your rules here. But I don't know what you expect me to do when Eugene pulls these stunts on every topic related to spiritual science, or actually any topic related to "Thinking", over and over again.

As mentioned before, I'm naive if I think I can stop it. It seems destined to play itself out. I remain cautiously optimistic that once it does, the forum can still be a place for the kind of dialogos I envision ... if only this corporeal expression can last another 25 years, it may see that day

I'm ok with that, I think it's a good demonstration of the spiritual science in action

[Ben Iscatus]

If we don't get too caught on the labels of "Atlantis, Lemuria, etc." and the automatic associations we make, then it is nearly impossible to deny that some stage of evolution like Lemuria and Atlantis would have occurred for the Earth if we also want to hold to the metamorphic progression consistently.

What's this? It wasn't real but we think it should have been?! Atlantis was mentioned by Plato and its myth embroidered by the Victorian writer Ignatius Donnelly, but the idea of it being an ancient civilisation with advanced technology was completely made up by the theosophist Blavatsky. It's pure fantasy.

[AshvinP]

If we don't get too caught on the labels of "Atlantis, Lemuria, etc." and the automatic associations we make, then it is nearly impossible to deny that some stage of evolution like Lemuria and Atlantis would have occurred for the Earth if we also want to hold to the metamorphic progression consistently.

What's this? It wasn't real but we think it should have been?! Atlantis was mentioned by Plato and its myth embroidered by the Victorian writer Ignatius Donnelly, but the idea of it being an ancient civilisation with advanced technology was completely made up by the theosophist Blavatsky. It's pure fantasy.

Myth of Atlantis, like that of the Flood, is found across all ancient cultures, with remarkably similar details. The materialist and anti-spiritual zealots looks at such clear mythic patterns with deadened thought (absolutely no Imagination) and concludes they are all "fantasy". Sound reasoning minds with a bit of Imagination look at such patterns and become curious and excited to discover the deeper secrets of their riddles. Sometimes I wonder if some people on this forum actually perceive the world in black and white, as in, literally devoid of any color perceptions.

[tjssailor]

lorenzop wrote:
In my humble opinion the best and simplist approach is to be opposed to any possibility of life after death...

Do you know what you are?
Can you explain why you exist in the first place?
If not then why would the above be valid?

I am consciousness
You are consciousness
It's the same consciousness
That consciousness exists behind all forms
Therefore the "death" of a specific form cannot be the end of consciousness

[Eugene I]

In this latest episode of Curt does Leo part two, even if one doesn't have 7 hours to spare, or any inspired inclination to devote much time at all to it, I do suggest to at least watch the initial discussion after Curt's intro, between the 4:30 - 19.00 minute mark, and that we here keep in mind and take to heart the well-intentioned reflections offered therein, when we are engaging with each other here.

Thanks for the link, I get it , but I actually can't stop myself from listening to the whole talk, the Leo guy is amazing

[ParadoxZone]

Eugene,

Fair enough, you asked a direct question.

I've in the past rambled a bit (on the synchronicity thread). This post contains some personal experiences, but I'll try to keep them tightly bound to this thread and other recent threads on this forum. On reading, you might consider that I'm pursuing the Steiner line out of purely practical personal reasoning. That isn't true - that actually would be nowhere near enough motivation (for me).

Cleric's postings have led to me re-remember quite a lot. That lady (mentioned previously) who bought the Synchronicity book in a different City at the same time, appeared out of the blue on my Twitter feed as a suggested follow on Saturday. I was taken aback and certain things flooded back into the foreground. (We last spoke 10 years ago, agreeing that we wouldn't be in contact, but if she ever wanted to contact me I'd be happy to hear from her.)

Now, having read Cleric's account of dream life recently (and his response to my query), on Sunday morning, having had ample sleep, I decided to treat myself to a lie-in. Having internalised Cleric's account of dream life and the advice not to take things too seriously, I had a vivid and disturbing dream. In it, she killed her ex-partner, fed his body to lions, and as the dream progressed it dawned on me that I had been complicit in the murder. Honestly, it took about 20 minutes after waking for me to realise that there was no murder and I hadn't actually been complicit. I was, and still am to an extent, a bit "shook".

Now, all of this can be put down to the power of suggestion, and there was a time when I would have bought that explanation. But there's more.

When I was "with" her briefly in 2008, there were, again as Cleric put it "sparks". Not just the sparks you might imagine. There was "poltergeist" activity in her apartment. There were wounds, regularly and spontaneously appearing on both her wrists, and healing remarkably quickly. Now, I didn't witness the appearance of the wounds, yet I don't believe they were self inflicted. They weren't superficial. I did, however witness the speed of the healing and it was extraordinary.

Having both got into the habit of visiting a local "weird" shop, we recounted details to the owner, who assured us that an "exorcism" was in order. So that "happened" in her apartment. There was talk of light beings "needing release" being seen by the exorcist. I didn't see anything. The eastern European boyfriend of the exorcist told me that he recognised me from some battlefield or other in Europe a long time ago. There was also talk of Atlantis. Now some of this is probably bs, or someone misinterpreting something rather badly. I'm not trying to "figure it all out", yet there is enough there, witnessed by me, to realise there is something to be understood or contextualised.

Now, onto your point (posting) of the clear eyes. The above happened in 2008, as I was coming out of a two year descent into my personal hell, having been diagnosed as bipolar in 2006. The earliest signs (for me, others had apparently spotted it earlier), were physical changes (skin, lots of energy etc). The most remarkable thing was the sparkling eyes. While driving, I'd look in the rearview mirror and be startled at the sparkle looking back at me. Now all of this wound-healing, poltergeist activity, talk of past lives, Atlantis etc, weren't processed very well by me. (I told nobody else about this, it wouldn't have gone down well.)

So on 08/08/08, while encouraging my son to take note of the lunar eclipse happening at the time, the energy, vitality, just left, suddenly accompanied by a resigned "FFS, here we go again". It was also "her" birthday. So was I doing good fruiting during the sparkling eyes phase? Was I doing bad fruiting in the three year descent that followed? Do you see why I might think your pictures of clear and not so clear eyes, and your subsequent interpretation is just ridiculous?

The next "ascent" into the sparkling eyes phase happened three years later. There were many happenings, but the one that stands out was being banned from my only "safe space", the weird shop, because on my previous visit there had been an unspecified "energetic event". So my thought process was along the lines of "Maybe I'm a demon after all". Those thoughts have been well and truly banished now, and I'm a lot more careful of whose thoughts I listen to and internalise.

There are two more recent threads that I want to touch on. One was about schizophrenia (and bipolar is thought of, medically, as being somewhere on that spectrum). Cleric's and others contributions, relating schizophrenia as intense feeling of disconnect from what's going on in the world, struck a chord with me. I would add that from my experience and observation in hospitals, the Bipolars (in the descent phase) feel that even more intensely. (My own experience has been almost exclusively in the descent phase and my description would be that it feels like what I imagine hell to feel like.) In another posting (on the Steiner related vaccination thread), Cleric made the point (paraphrasing) that there are those who would vaccinate humanity against any possibility of "higher" consciousness. This is happening in hospitals and doctors offices right now. The schizophrenics and Bipolars are being prescribed very high doses of anti-psychotics, sometimes in a cocktail with mood stabilisers, anti-depressants with anti-histamines and beta-blockers prescribed to counter some side effects of the "therapeutic" prescription. I have no objection to the judicious use of psychotropic drugs (I took a small dose of a little helper last night, for the first time in months, considering that maintaining a regular sleep cycle was among the more important things I could do). What I do rail against is patients being told that they will have to take this cocktail for the rest of their lives. Some readily comply to have "normal enough" work and family life. Others don't, considering they are being told there is something fundamentally wrong with their being. And the bad news is often delivered with a little too much glee. And there is little talk of integration in these settings, at least not from the medics who still run the show.

Apart from the mental health industry, the are the likes of Sam Harris, Dawkins, Tyson and their ilk. I've heard Sam say, more than once, that his life's work is to banish religion, and "superstition" from humanity. Maybe these guys are the real demons that need to be fought on all fronts? Would they advocate an intervention for all of us to banish these "superstitions"? I think they would.

The last thread I want to touch on is the neo-advaita thread. The "there is only THIS and all is perfect" guys. Listening to Parsons many years ago drove me daft. I've since watched the Anna video and all I can do is laugh now. I posted the Christine Breese video as a little antidote, a reminder that maybe everything is not all that perfect. Eugene took this as buttressing his world view (Grr!). I've watched it again, and can see why. Christine's video can be interpreted as a call to be involved in stuff in the world, to perfect the human condition in this "experiment". I understand why Ashvin would watch this through gritted teeth, neglecting as it does the necessity for self-improvement, work on the "self" to bring about a better world content. So sorry Ashvin, the posting was made in good faith.

So finally Eugene, if I come across light beings or Zodiac interpretations I'll let you know. You can give me reasons why it's all my imagination. I'll listen to you. You will have to read PoF (just over an hour after agreeing to read it you withdrew that commitment). Don't hold back. Don't use the excuse that your dealing with a "disordered" one as an excuse. I'm ok, the eyes are sparkling and the "Sun-impulse" is back and needs to be tended to after a decade-long absence. So don't expect my account of the Zodiac this week. Lastly, I think I recognise what might be going on for you. "Don't look there - I'm afraid of what I might discover about myself." I think the term might be doxastic ignorance/anxiety. If I'm using that term incorrectly, tell me that too.

And the last, last thing. All this talk of spiritual dictatorships doesn't wash here. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything, including reading the posts.