Philosophy in the Matrix movies: what's the relationship (if any) with BK's Analytic Idealism and/or Consciousness?

[idlecuriosity]

First post of the morning. Wish this site had a longer edit cooldown period; what someone says on the spur of the now is blitz chess, a patchwork facsimile of their actual internal congregation. I think a really intelligent data analysis on youtube mentioned that before, "it's all about live debates, respond now!" but that doesn't really suffice to learn anything and learning is what I want to do.

"Why would anyone be afraid of that? Most of them are outright miserable because they're disconnected and having ideals sold to them so JP can make a buck while they languish, that's why they don't feel very good. Everyone is looking for people to 'join a cause' to absolve their suffering or loneliness and such causes tend to predate upon these exact intuitive leanings. The only way to fix one's life is to confront where that life sits relevant to the problems they have, having the right advice (JP does give some of this.) only helps to some degree. You must act on reality, albeit perhaps in relation to those intuitions. Loosely topical; you should start a youtube channel, I'd have a better overview of your premise so I could formulate a better understanding of it and you'd probably enjoy the money too."

fixed

and

">saying I have to see his subjective opinion as objective or I don't have any basis to believe mine-

no u, you might have already died in the 1930s. See the above story. Same here, btw."

I would've left this out, that part's useless fluff and I was rude.

Stories do a lot of cool things but they aren't all archetype christ/ascension analogues and Matrix wouldn't be the Mona Lisa even for that one insular niche, Matrix is a profoundly industrialized John Woo flick that a lot of normies like and has fun fight scenes. I sure would not want to live within it's post apocalyptic world and I don't really find the exact specific circumstances of it's world building serves as a bewitching analogue to our likely future or present circumstances. Machines are way less likely to need to siphon our life energy and if we let them get out of control we're probably not going to get a chance to strike back, that's one very profound plus to Christianity; it may lead us to reneging on our insistent need to progress without giving reflection to what it all means. A conservative/naturalist set of ideals is probably for the best given our current landscape. The Matrix is a hypothetical and not due to the actors at play in it's plot but the details of how everything works in it's worldbuilding, it doesn't remotely approach an allegory IMHO because the reality will play out far more oppressively if it's allowed to get to that point

Summarized: my question is; how is Matrix an idealistic intuitive reflection? If anything it's the real blue pill, a romanticizing of circumstances that would spell our end if they ever materialized. That's a future to prevent, in reality, not put on a pedestal

[Soul_of_Shu]

First post of the morning. Wish this site had a longer edit cooldown period

I'm open to increasing the edit time limit, within reason. The issue from the mod's perspective is that I'm busy enough just keeping up with what is written on any given day, never mind what a poster has edited from yesterday, which could be problematic. Then there could be others editing their responses to the edits, e.g. if they've quoted a passage that has since been significantly altered or deleted, in order to keep it all congruent. So I'm not inclined to make it more than 2-3 hours.

[AshvinP]

First post of the morning. Wish this site had a longer edit cooldown period; what someone says on the spur of the now is blitz chess, a patchwork facsimile of their actual internal congregation. I think a really intelligent data analysis on youtube mentioned that before, "it's all about live debates, respond now!" but that doesn't really suffice to learn anything and learning is what I want to do.

"Why would anyone be afraid of that? Most of them are outright miserable because they're disconnected and having ideals sold to them so JP can make a buck while they languish, that's why they don't feel very good. Everyone is looking for people to 'join a cause' to absolve their suffering or loneliness and such causes tend to predate upon these exact intuitive leanings. The only way to fix one's life is to confront where that life sits relevant to the problems they have, having the right advice (JP does give some of this.) only helps to some degree. You must act on reality, albeit perhaps in relation to those intuitions. Loosely topical; you should start a youtube channel, I'd have a better overview of your premise so I could formulate a better understanding of it and you'd probably enjoy the money too."

Because, after physical death, people are most afraid of taking on responsibility for their own destiny (maybe even more so than death in some cases). Mere belief in a spiritual reality provides some comfort, but knowledge of a spiritual reality - that life does not end at death, that there is concrete experience between death and rebirth, including experience of how our actions affected others, that our deeds in this lifetime will karmically influence our future incarnations, etc. - comes with great responsibility and, honestly, there are times when I still feel the urge to avoid it as well, despite being more convinced than ever before, through careful reasoning, that it must exist.

I have enough on my plate not to have any desire to put time and effort into a YT channel, and it would take a lot of both to even get 50-100 regular viewers. And even more would be required to successfully monetize it, which I have little interest in doing. That is one responsibility I am going to avoid

Stories do a lot of cool things but they aren't all archetype christ/ascension analogues and Matrix wouldn't be the Mona Lisa even for that one insular niche, Matrix is a profoundly industrialized John Woo flick that a lot of normies like and has fun fight scenes. I sure would not want to live within it's post apocalyptic world and I don't really find the exact specific circumstances of it's world building serves as a bewitching analogue to our likely future or present circumstances. Machines are way less likely to need to siphon our life energy and if we let them get out of control we're probably not going to get a chance to strike back, that's one very profound plus to Christianity; it may lead us to reneging on our insistent need to progress without giving reflection to what it all means. A conservative/naturalist set of ideals is probably for the best given our current landscape. The Matrix is a hypothetical and not due to the actors at play in it's plot but the details of how everything works in it's worldbuilding, it doesn't remotely approach an allegory IMHO because the reality will play out far more oppressively if it's allowed to get to that point

Summarized: my question is; how is Matrix an idealistic intuitive reflection? If anything it's the real blue pill, a romanticizing of circumstances that would spell our end if they ever materialized. That's a future to prevent, in reality, not put on a pedestal

We won't recognize a lot of these things until we develop the conceptual 'slots' to resonate with the archetypal manifestations, and if we project a caricature onto the spiritual reality and then deny our own creations as silly, naive, wishful, fantasy, etc., those slots will never be developed. I am not saying anything original here - plenty of 18th-20th century thinkers have remarked on how the spiritual manifests in aesthetics. Usually this is confined to an analysis of relatively vague archetypal patterns, but if the spiritual is actually structured as much as our experience (not in the same way, but structured nonetheless), then we should expect blossoming imaginations from the spiritual realms, expressed through many domains of inquiry and creative exploration but especially aesthetics, to reflect that as well.

As surely as all human individuals, taken together, with the power of vision which Nature has granted them, would never succeed in observing a satellite of Jupiter which the telescope reveals to the astronomer, so beyond question is it that human reflection would never have achieved an analysis of the infinite or a critique of pure reason, unless Reason had become dismembered among the several relevant subjects, as it were wrenched itself loose from all matter and strengthened its gaze into the Absolute by the most intense abstraction...

But can Man really be destined to neglect himself for any end whatever? Should Nature be able, by her designs, to rob us of a completeness which Reason prescribes to us by hers? It must be false that the cultivation of individual powers necessitates the sacrifice of their totality; or however much the law of Nature did have that tendency, we must be at liberty to restore by means of a higher Art this wholeness in our nature which Art has destroyed.

- Friedrich von Schiller, On the Aesthetic Education of Man (1795)


We would do well, therefore, to think of the creative process as a living thing implanted in the human psyche... But works that are openly symbolic do not require this subtle approach; their pregnant language cries out at us that they mean more than they say. We can put our finger on the symbol at once, even though we may not be able to unriddle its meaning to our entire satisfaction. A symbol remains a perpetual challenge to our thoughts and feelings. That probably explains why a symbolic work is so stimulating, why it grips us so intensely, but also why it seldom affords us a purely aesthetic enjoyment.
...
But in the case of a symbolic work we should remember the dictum of Gerhard Hauptmann: “Poetry evokes out of words the resonance of the primordial word..."

Great poetry draws its strength from the life of mankind, and we completely miss its meaning if we try to derive it from personal factors... A work of art is produced that may truthfully be called a message to generations of men. So Faust touches something in the soul of every German... so also Dante’s fame is immortal, and the Shepherd of Hermas was very nearly included in the New Testament canon.

- Carl Jung, The Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature

re: Matrix - there are two forces the spiritual represented here (spiritual = outside the matrix) - one which seeks to consign humanity to mechanistic intellectual abstraction within the matrix, i.e. maintain wordly power by feeding off the life-forces of human souls; and then there is the human individual - you, me, potentially any One (Neo) - who seeks to liberate himself and others through authentic relation with the spiritual and guidance of a master (Morpheus). The matrix is a realm of dreaming people who are literally stuck in the past (as we ourselves are coming to be) and cannot evolve into the spiritual realms of the future. The red pill/blue pill choice is a clear reflection of what has been called "initiation" by esoteric spiritual tradition throughout the epochs and so are many subsequent scenes, which is making layers of the subconscious spiritual within us more conscious. The characters must continually plunge into the matrix (sense-world of Maya) in order to fight the mechanistic forces and reveal the spiritual within. There is even "deja vu" in the matrix as a phenomenal manifestation of spiritual echoes (glitches) from past epochs. Neo the disciple becomes the master and is betrayed by his own Judas. Much more could be said here, and this is all the first movie... I haven't watched the other two in a long time. I suspect the new one - "Resurrections" - will not be much different.

[Soul_of_Shu]

"We would do well, therefore, to think of the creative process as a living thing implanted in the human psyche... But works that are openly symbolic do not require this subtle approach; their pregnant language cries out at us that they mean more than they say. We can put our finger on the symbol at once, even though we may not be able to unriddle its meaning to our entire satisfaction. A symbol remains a perpetual challenge to our thoughts and feelings. That probably explains why a symbolic work is so stimulating, why it grips us so intensely, but also why it seldom affords us a purely aesthetic enjoyment.
...
But in the case of a symbolic work we should remember the dictum of Gerhard Hauptmann: “Poetry evokes out of words the resonance of the primordial word..."

Great poetry draws its strength from the life of mankind, and we completely miss its meaning if we try to derive it from personal factors... A work of art is produced that may truthfully be called a message to generations of men. So Faust touches something in the soul of every German... so also Dante’s fame is immortal, and the Shepherd of Hermas was very nearly included in the New Testament canon."

- Carl Jung, The Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature

One does wonder how these archetypal themes and symbols weave their way into various art forms, whether mainstream or relatively obscure, as with my own poetry, whereby I'm not actually meta-cognitively attempting to integrate those themes, or aware that they're even present until contemplating them retrospectively, or when perhaps someone points it out, whereas I missed it altogether, suggesting that their inclusion was largely a case of subliminal synchronicity ... or as if the daemon made me do it! Indeed, in the case of some of the better efforts, it's almost as if I'm transcribing (channelling?) a composition that has already been conceived 'elsewhere', and has little to do with the mini-me. In which case, why wouldn't this also apply to screenwriters of blockbuster hits?

[AshvinP]

"We would do well, therefore, to think of the creative process as a living thing implanted in the human psyche... But works that are openly symbolic do not require this subtle approach; their pregnant language cries out at us that they mean more than they say. We can put our finger on the symbol at once, even though we may not be able to unriddle its meaning to our entire satisfaction. A symbol remains a perpetual challenge to our thoughts and feelings. That probably explains why a symbolic work is so stimulating, why it grips us so intensely, but also why it seldom affords us a purely aesthetic enjoyment.
...
But in the case of a symbolic work we should remember the dictum of Gerhard Hauptmann: “Poetry evokes out of words the resonance of the primordial word..."

Great poetry draws its strength from the life of mankind, and we completely miss its meaning if we try to derive it from personal factors... A work of art is produced that may truthfully be called a message to generations of men. So Faust touches something in the soul of every German... so also Dante’s fame is immortal, and the Shepherd of Hermas was very nearly included in the New Testament canon."

- Carl Jung, The Spirit in Man, Art, and Literature

One does wonder how these archetypal themes and symbols weave their way into various art forms, whether mainstream or relatively obscure, as with my own poetry, whereby I'm not actually meta-cognitively attempting to integrate those themes, or aware that that they're even present until contemplating them retrospectively, or when perhaps someone points it out, whereas I missed it altogether, suggesting that their inclusion was largely a case of subliminal synchronicity ... or as if the daemon made me do it! Indeed, in the case of some of the better efforts, it's almost as if I'm transcribing (channelling?) a composition that has already been conceived 'elsewhere', and has little to do with the mini-me. In which case, why wouldn't this also apply to screenwriters of blockbuster hits?

Yes and this was taken for granted by our spiritual ancestors. At the beginning of Homer's Odyssey and Iliad, he asks the Muse to sing the stories. At that time, it was still known as unquestionable truth that the creative personality is a vessel and channel for imaginative contents streaming in from the spiritual realms.