A clean room for a specific exploration

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
findingblanks
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Re: A clean room for a specific exploration

Post by findingblanks »

When I wrote:

"What I might worry about is that we'd make an exception for a good person who works within Anthroposophy. I know that isn't your intention."

I just meant that in starting with the 'yearning' you pointed to, I want that to include any and everybody. We'd recognize it even when it is trying to get an Anthroposophist to take a break from their favorite reading and maybe check out a person or style of thought that isn't necessarily endorsed from within Anthroposophy.

And then you asked:

"So what are the archetypal phenomenon we can perceive in all story structures, for ex., pointing us towards in your view?"

I just want to be careful about what we might be referring to as 'my view.' In the context of this conversation, my 'viewpoint' has a certain shape, I guess. And since I don't think of a given structure of thought (that exists out in the world) as representing my viewpoint, I'll assume we are talking about the 'kinds of ideas, concerns, interests I'm saying in this conversation.

Okay, if we are on the same page with what I just said, then....I think, perhaps, that when archetypal storytelling presents warnings about leaning onto
very helpful structures for too long or in the wrong contexts....Like when a hero develops a certain skill for very good reason but then doesn't realize that they are creating havoc when using it most of the time. Or when the hero must realize that the very thing (idea, understanding, skill) that got them this far is now exactly what they must let go of. Or when the hero realizes that their resistance to changing something they value has been more of the
problem than the 'problem' itself. And they hand it over to somebody less 'heroic'... Outside of the hero's story, I think archetypal stories present evil as any of the forces that want to over-expand the powerful-yet-delicate balance required of the hero, either into deeply dogmatic structures into into profoundly pleasurable temptations. And, finally, whenever a story can beautifully show that the hero must be transformed in order to continue and that they will look nothing like their previous selves once they let go and accept the change.

Now, my job is to think of my favorite stories and find examples of these things balancing acts :) Should be fun!
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AshvinP
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Re: A clean room for a specific exploration

Post by AshvinP »

findingblanks wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:05 pm When I wrote:

"What I might worry about is that we'd make an exception for a good person who works within Anthroposophy. I know that isn't your intention."

I just meant that in starting with the 'yearning' you pointed to, I want that to include any and everybody. We'd recognize it even when it is trying to get an Anthroposophist to take a break from their favorite reading and maybe check out a person or style of thought that isn't necessarily endorsed from within Anthroposophy.

And then you asked:

"So what are the archetypal phenomenon we can perceive in all story structures, for ex., pointing us towards in your view?"

I just want to be careful about what we might be referring to as 'my view.' In the context of this conversation, my 'viewpoint' has a certain shape, I guess. And since I don't think of a given structure of thought (that exists out in the world) as representing my viewpoint, I'll assume we are talking about the 'kinds of ideas, concerns, interests I'm saying in this conversation.

Okay, if we are on the same page with what I just said, then....I think, perhaps, that when archetypal storytelling presents warnings about leaning onto
very helpful structures for too long or in the wrong contexts....Like when a hero develops a certain skill for very good reason but then doesn't realize that they are creating havoc when using it most of the time. Or when the hero must realize that the very thing (idea, understanding, skill) that got them this far is now exactly what they must let go of. Or when the hero realizes that their resistance to changing something they value has been more of the
problem than the 'problem' itself. And they hand it over to somebody less 'heroic'... Outside of the hero's story, I think archetypal stories present evil as any of the forces that want to over-expand the powerful-yet-delicate balance required of the hero, either into deeply dogmatic structures into into profoundly pleasurable temptations. And, finally, whenever a story can beautifully show that the hero must be transformed in order to continue and that they will look nothing like their previous selves once they let go and accept the change.

Now, my job is to think of my favorite stories and find examples of these things balancing acts :) Should be fun!

FB,

I wasn't asking you to explain what "archetypes" are or what specific ones mean : ) I guess my questions on this thread are really badly worded, so let me try asking another way...

I say these archetypal characters and themes are so universal and meaningful in all stories because they reflect spritual beings and their meaningful activity which precipitates into our imaginative ideation. Do you agree, don't agree, kind of agree, and/or think it is unknowable? These spiritual beings should not be anthropomorphized, but they do have intelligence, agency, perspective, and spiritual activity of W-F-T.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
findingblanks
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Re: A clean room for a specific exploration

Post by findingblanks »

"I say these archetypal characters and themes are so universal and meaningful in all stories because they reflect spritual beings and their meaningful activity which precipitates into our imaginative ideation. Do you agree, don't agree, kind of agree, and/or think it is unknowable? These spiritual beings should not be anthropomorphized, but they do have intelligence, agency, perspective, and spiritual activity of W-F-T."

I believe these things are knowable via direct experience. And I believe that the moment the intuition begins being explicated (a 'spiritual' process in and of itself) the 'knowledge' is not (and is not supposed to be direct anymore. So I agree with you in the sense that I agree your words

"because they reflect spritual beings and their meaningful activity which precipitates into our imaginative ideation."

point to reality (and come from reality).

And if, say, three so-called lifetimes from now you were to say, "Well, back then the best and most accurate terms for me to use was 'spiritual beings' but now I see that it can be expressed better by by saying XYZ..." I will say that - assuming you're actually going deeper - this new expression is carrying forward the truth in a deeper and wider sense (at least in your given context). And, again, somebody in your community or you yourself will eventually say, "Ah, with this new understanding of T, we can actually penetrate XYZ in a new way and should restate it a bit..." And, of course, some of our favoite moments in science (of course including spiritual science) is when a sudden new insight causes the researcher to say, "I have realized that we must actually understand this phenomenon in nearly opposite terms, that while we grasped the truth previously, we can now see that it was vastly different than we could tell at the time..."

That sort of thing, especially when it comes from the brightest (like Steiner) often lifts up the hairs on the back of our necks.

I'm open to the idea that what are often differentiated as individualized beings are more accurately described as a living conglomeration of a creative union between a specific alter and a specific modality of M@L. This would explain why such an interaction could be perceived as being with just 'a' being, why it could be very objective along some lines and fairly un-objective along other lines, and why various individuals and cultures would have sometimes seemingly contradictory 'reports' about the nature of such 'a' 'being'.

What i just said is not intended to be in the context of my proving it or debating against you. I am trying to amplify my basic answer to your questions, in sum: yes, I agree that your explication points to objective reality. And, yes, I believe that what you are referring to 'these spiritual being' can accurately be characterized as having intelligence, agency, and perspective.
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AshvinP
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Re: A clean room for a specific exploration

Post by AshvinP »

findingblanks wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:06 pm "I say these archetypal characters and themes are so universal and meaningful in all stories because they reflect spritual beings and their meaningful activity which precipitates into our imaginative ideation. Do you agree, don't agree, kind of agree, and/or think it is unknowable? These spiritual beings should not be anthropomorphized, but they do have intelligence, agency, perspective, and spiritual activity of W-F-T."

I believe these things are knowable via direct experience. And I believe that the moment the intuition begins being explicated (a 'spiritual' process in and of itself) the 'knowledge' is not (and is not supposed to be direct anymore. So I agree with you in the sense that I agree your words

"because they reflect spritual beings and their meaningful activity which precipitates into our imaginative ideation."

point to reality (and come from reality).

And if, say, three so-called lifetimes from now you were to say, "Well, back then the best and most accurate terms for me to use was 'spiritual beings' but now I see that it can be expressed better by by saying XYZ..." I will say that - assuming you're actually going deeper - this new expression is carrying forward the truth in a deeper and wider sense (at least in your given context). And, again, somebody in your community or you yourself will eventually say, "Ah, with this new understanding of T, we can actually penetrate XYZ in a new way and should restate it a bit..." And, of course, some of our favoite moments in science (of course including spiritual science) is when a sudden new insight causes the researcher to say, "I have realized that we must actually understand this phenomenon in nearly opposite terms, that while we grasped the truth previously, we can now see that it was vastly different than we could tell at the time..."

That sort of thing, especially when it comes from the brightest (like Steiner) often lifts up the hairs on the back of our necks.

I'm open to the idea that what are often differentiated as individualized beings are more accurately described as a living conglomeration of a creative union between a specific alter and a specific modality of M@L. This would explain why such an interaction could be perceived as being with just 'a' being, why it could be very objective along some lines and fairly un-objective along other lines, and why various individuals and cultures would have sometimes seemingly contradictory 'reports' about the nature of such 'a' 'being'.

What i just said is not intended to be in the context of my proving it or debating against you. I am trying to amplify my basic answer to your questions, in sum: yes, I agree that your explication points to objective reality. And, yes, I believe that what you are referring to 'these spiritual being' can accurately be characterized as having intelligence, agency, and perspective.

FB, thank you for the detailed response. I feel that I have a much better understanding of your position on spiritual matters. I agree, several lifetimes from now, or even during this lifetime, the way we point to these realities will be much different. Hopefully, the words "spirit" and "spiritual" will not even be necessary sometime this century, because the reality of the spirit-soul and their respective activities will be so patently obvious, like the existence of physical bodies and sense-organs and life processes, that no such distinctions will be necessary. The reason so many different terminologies have developed among so many different intellectual 'interest groups' is precisely because of the fragmentation of the modern age via rationalism, dualism, materialism, etc. As those wounds are healed, we should expect the differences in terminology which cause so much confusion and talking past one another to fade out as well.

The bolded part is where we may disagree. It is true that, historically, world-conceptions of phenomenal relations have come to be understood in nearly "opposite" terms and ways as previously (antithesis to the thesis). And there is every indication that has also been occurring over the last 100 years or so, as Newtonian understanding of the world moves to Darwinian, Einsteinian, etc. But we should also recognize these always result in a paradigmatic synthesis of the previous paradigms which makes sense of their predictions, results, historical context, etc. It is not that the previous paradigm is shown by the new paradigm to be pointing to a completely different reality, but it is understood exactly how and why the previous view was right and how and why it was wrong (incomplete). This process is outlined very well in Thomas Kuhn's book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.

This is intimately tied to the role of Thinking and Memory as integrative process, which has generally been ignored in the modern age. People tend to feel like history is completely linear (materialism) or circular (mysticism), rather than spiraling upwards, so to speak. This tendency to understand current transformation in terms of very ancient ones is itself falling into the trap you are pointing to, i.e. the dangers of dogmatic certainty about one's current perspective and knowledge. Jean Gebser does a very good job highlighting this trap of the 'aperspectival' mutation of consciousness in The EPO. So, that is to say, we should not use this objective historical process as a reason to loosely hold a bunch of different ideas about the world, because that is also a dogmatic approach. Rather we should garner what insights that we can from our unique "time-free" a-perspective on phenomenal relations to have the degrees of freedom necessary to integrate new experience and knowledge as it unfolds.
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findingblanks
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Re: A clean room for a specific exploration

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I like how you framed my comments above. But I would want to say that one element that I haven't said clearly enough is that, for me, it isn't just that we learn to point better at our understandings of the truth. I am suggesting that our very understanding is both a capturing of direct reality and a distorting of it, and that this isn't a problem or something that needs to be 'fixed' by 'exact perception' or anything like that. It is intrinsic to what it means for "The Word" to be eternally spoken into finite reality. My experience has been that we all have a desire for 'exact' to mean that the understanding was perfect in a sense that transcends the kind of obfuscation that I think is intrinsic to the evolution of knowing.

"It is not that the previous paradigm is shown by the new paradigm to be pointing to a completely different reality, but it is understood exactly how and why the previous view was right and how and why it was wrong (incomplete)."

I think we just have slight disagreements here. I wouldn't say that it points 'exactly' for the reasons I stated above, but I agree with you 100% about how the dialectic organically moves along, now requiring more and more individuated consciousnesses.

And I believe that process is moving much faster than it did before. You no doubt have read Steiner's claims that state it is moving increasingly rapidly. In that sense, I'm not surprised that some people are already finding ways that Steiner's views and understandings must be balanced and corrected for. That said, I also understand why that could be experienced as a very naive claim.

But as I said above, I see that we are in much agreement on these topics.
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AshvinP
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Re: A clean room for a specific exploration

Post by AshvinP »

findingblanks wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:18 pm I like how you framed my comments above. But I would want to say that one element that I haven't said clearly enough is that, for me, it isn't just that we learn to point better at our understandings of the truth. I am suggesting that our very understanding is both a capturing of direct reality and a distorting of it, and that this isn't a problem or something that needs to be 'fixed' by 'exact perception' or anything like that. It is intrinsic to what it means for "The Word" to be eternally spoken into finite reality. My experience has been that we all have a desire for 'exact' to mean that the understanding was perfect in a sense that transcends the kind of obfuscation that I think is intrinsic to the evolution of knowing.

"It is not that the previous paradigm is shown by the new paradigm to be pointing to a completely different reality, but it is understood exactly how and why the previous view was right and how and why it was wrong (incomplete)."

I think we just have slight disagreements here. I wouldn't say that it points 'exactly' for the reasons I stated above, but I agree with you 100% about how the dialectic organically moves along, now requiring more and more individuated consciousnesses.

And I believe that process is moving much faster than it did before. You no doubt have read Steiner's claims that state it is moving increasingly rapidly. In that sense, I'm not surprised that some people are already finding ways that Steiner's views and understandings must be balanced and corrected for. That said, I also understand why that could be experienced as a very naive claim.

But as I said above, I see that we are in much agreement on these topics.

FB,

The disagreement here comes down to intellectual cognition in relation to higher cognition, which is also another way of saying current perspective in relation to spiritual evolution towards integration of perspective as such. I know you have read Barfield and take his evolution of consciousness seriously, including his concept of "final participation", which is why I cannot understand your logic in asserting the bold. You seem to view "finite reality" as a static and fixed thing, which always maintains the same 'boundaries' with respect to eternal-infinite spiritual reality. There are two major problems with such a view:

1) Metaphysical - it immediately lapses into dualism of various sorts, i.e. finite vs. infinite, material vs. spiritual, etc. I know this is not how you understand it, but I am speaking of the practical effects here. The underlined portion of your comment, if "understanding" is assumed to be a static state of intellectual cognition, is dualism by definition. The only way around this is if one also allows for an "understanding" which is not merely intellectual and representational, i.e. thinking which must divide the world content into subject and object, but thinking which is prior to all such divisions. If such an understanding is attainable, then the bold assertion cannot hold true anymore.

2) Phenomenological - since Cleric and myself are writing about this all the time, and you are also familiar with the works of Steiner and Barfield on spiritual evolution, I don't really need to elaborate much here. It seems to me like you have a general acceptance of this evolutionary process, as reflected in blue portion of your comment, but when it comes to the practical application of the general theory to human history and evolution of perception-cognition in our current age and our immanent experience, you tend to ignore it and assume a more Newtonian fixed view of cognitive evolution. So I am really interested in your response here as to how you reconcile these dual aspects of your thought.
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findingblanks
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Re: A clean room for a specific exploration

Post by findingblanks »

Hi, I'll have to respond in brief bursts but hopefully they will clarify.

"You seem to view "finite reality" as a static and fixed thing..."

In some contexts people use 'finite reality' to simply distinguish it from an acausal or eternal source. I don't need to use that term. I'm happy with whatever works for a given group or individual. That said, I believe that 'finite' reality' is always changing.

"1) Metaphysical - it immediately lapses into dualism of various sorts, i.e. finite vs. infinite, material vs. spiritual, etc. I know this is not how you understand it, but I am speaking of the practical effects here."

Yes, you're right that I don't mean it in that way. But I appreciate a concern for practical effects of how we speak. This is why I find it useful to apply the same criterion on some of Steiner's languaging. That said, I'm glad you see that I don't understand those ideas in strict binary terms.

"The only way around this is if one also allows for an "understanding" which is not merely intellectual and representational, i.e. thinking which must divide the world content into subject and object, but thinking which is prior to all such divisions."

I'm not sure I'd agree with 'prior' but I agree with most of that.

"It seems to me like you have a general acceptance of this evolutionary process, as reflected in blue portion of your comment, but when it comes to the practical application of the general theory to human history and evolution of perception-cognition in our current age and our immanent experience, you tend to ignore it and assume a more Newtonian fixed view of cognitive evolution."

Considering that -- despite various reservations I have with Steiner's research methodology and some of his results and claims -- I've praised him not only for his more abstract findings but for his detailed work in education, social work, philosophy and farming, I think I've demonstrated that what I consider problems and errors don't ruin or define his work. In order to try to make this clear in a language and framework that might make sense to you, I'll need to stop and think about how to translate the ideas. Thanks again.

If I can figure out a more helpful way of expressing myself in that context, I'd probably be able to make more clear why my view of higher-cognition overlaps yours but is significantly different. I'll ponder.
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AshvinP
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Re: A clean room for a specific exploration

Post by AshvinP »

findingblanks wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:39 pm "The only way around this is if one also allows for an "understanding" which is not merely intellectual and representational, i.e. thinking which must divide the world content into subject and object, but thinking which is prior to all such divisions."

I'm not sure I'd agree with 'prior' but I agree with most of that.
...
If I can figure out a more helpful way of expressing myself in that context, I'd probably be able to make more clear why my view of higher-cognition overlaps yours but is significantly different. I'll ponder.

OK, I will await your elaborations. In the meantime, I will refer to a passage from Steiner which clarifies what I mean by Thinking "prior to" subject-object (and all related) distinctions. Although this mode of Thinking is highly veiled by intellectual cognition, we can still discern it functioning in our Reason with some thoughtful effort. When the veil of intellectual cognition is lifted (via higher cognition), it is immediately self-evident that it precedes all these distinctions.

Steiner wrote:The intellect causes the separation of the individual configurations — because they do indeed confront us in the given as individual elements [ 52 ] — and reason recognizes the unity. [ 53 ] If we have the following two perceptions: 1. the sun shining down and 2. a warm stone, the intellect keeps both things apart, because they confront us as two; it holds onto one as the cause and onto the other as the effect; then reason supervenes, tears down the wall between them, and recognizes the unity in the duality. All the concepts that the intellect creates — cause and effect, substance and attribute, body and soul, idea and reality, God and world, etc. — are there only in order to keep unified reality separated artificially into parts; and reason, without blurring the content thus created, without mystically obscuring the clarity of the intellect, has then to seek out the inner unity in the multiplicity. Reason thereby comes back to that from which the intellect had distanced itself: to the unified reality.

So when you write, "I am suggesting that our very understanding is both a capturing of direct reality and a distorting of it", it appears to me you referring specifically to intellect as "understanding" while excluding higher cognition.
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findingblanks
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Re: A clean room for a specific exploration

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"So when you write, "I am suggesting that our very understanding is both a capturing of direct reality and a distorting of it", it appears to me you referring specifically to intellect as "understanding" while excluding higher cognition."

Well put! No, the important explicating role played by the intellect (which both 'clarifies' and 'distorts' necessarily) is also shared by other modes of explication, including those that rely on what some refer to as 'higher' modes.

Yes, the interesting problem I have is trying to find words that speak to you. That's my problem, so to speak :) Not yours! Unless I find a creative way to help generate that bridge, you will be left feeling I don't understand what you are saying and you will be left being quite certain my comments miss the point. If I ever succeed in this quest with you, it is not that you'll suddenly realize we are in complete agreement and have no different point of view. But you will realize that the kinds of distinctions I am making aren't quite so point-missing as they seem.

Partially I think this is a challenge simply because of the nature of the content itself. But it also has a very connection to the living-dialectic you referred to above. Whatever point we cherish is always already instancing a thesis aspect, a antithesis aspect, and a synthesis aspect. Our problem is that we mostly unconsciously experience our understanding as synthesis only. Therefore, from that point of view, another perspective that seems to miss the point is often really a living and necessary 'antheses' or 'synthesis' that we, understandably, experience as lacking. One way I gaurd against this is that I try to at least grasp as clearly as possible (not intellectually but cognitively) the way in which any of my understandings are standing in all three positions and, therefore, even when I am in apparent disagreement with another's point, I must be able to see that it has something I'm missing to an extent. Otherwise, ego simply pushes to convince the other or to 'understand' them until they see my point.

I will say something right now about the 'prior' we are talking about, but for all the reasons I just stated, it is obvious to me it will fall into the creative and very necessary abyss of shared understanding we are cultivating. If I do figure out a new way in eventually, then I will be able to make the following points much more fruitfully to you.

Yes, I would say that the intellect inherently distorts.
But that isn't exactly the 'distortion' I'm speaking of.
And 'distortion' as an adjective does indeed distort my point a bit.
Yet, it also helps point to it a bit.

We can find in Steiner descriptions of Inspiration and Imagination
in which he describes the way in which both modes of higher knowledge
'distort' the Truth to a degree. He isn't speaking negatively of them when
he points out that they necessarily leave some 'distance' between the
Living Intuition and how it incarnates as an Inspiration or an Imagination.

But rather than referring to Steiner, I'll say that I appreciate that you and I
both seem to be on the same page regarding how utterly essential the
intellect is in explicating an Intuition and, yet, how we should be very
sensitive to the ways our creative and useful intellectual 'chopping' is
always both helping the understanding of ourselves and others and
creating unique challenges to it. And that is unavoidable.

I say that the same kind (not the same thing, just kind) of process
is taking place with the higher modes of cognition. Since we aren't
claiming that only Steiner's schema of 'higher' counts, I'll refrain from
using his schema. But even to say 'higher' is already making a consession
in that direction. Which is fine.

But this is all to say that in my view it isn't merely the intellect which
necessarily incarnates (explicates) The Word (or Intuition or...) but any
actual intuition is moving through 'higher' forms of knowing in order to
even reach the intellect, each of which (via its role in incarnating The Word)
creatively 'distorts' in order to speak in communion with an Other.

The use of 'distort' is only useful if we don't take it in the pejorative sense. Yes,
this incarnating process also could be described as 'clarifying.' That is true! But
the only reason I might avoid saying 'clarify' is that that tends to overlook the
metamorphosis that happens in incarnation intuition. But it is just as true to say
that these modes of knowledge ("higher" or however we label them) 'clarify' the
truth as to say they 'distort' or metamorphose or 'birth'. Birth isn't a bad
metaphor in that the child is a 'distortion' of the parent while carrying
the life forward. Father and Son metaphor.

............

One day my daughter was playing by herself outside. She was about five.
I was reading under a nearby tree. She ran up to a nearby big rock and placed
both hands on it. I saw a smile grow on her face. She then twisted herself
towards the sun behind her and said, "Thank you sun!" I asked her why she
thanked the sun and she said, "For making the rock so warm and cozy."

She was five. And certainly intellect was involved with her the joy and
gratitude she felt well up within her has she felt the warmth. If she was a dog
or a snail, I'm not sure she would have had that sacred experience of gratitude.
But even though her intellect was involved, I don't think it is accurate to say
that she first unconsciously separated each 'item' of her experience into 'parts.'
Somebody might claim her experience of gratitude in the sun warming the stone
was the function of Reason itself. Somebody might want to point out that
there is a difference between that kind of Reason and the Reason cultivated by
an adult in order to grasp directly the unity of the Cosmos.

I don't think my daughter could have had that experience without having basic
intuitions and concepts (not the same thing obviously) of 'sun' and 'stone' and 'hands'
and 'me' and 'warm' and one-thousands other 'things.' And I don't think the spiritual
scientist or Goethean or XYZ can speak of what is 'prior' to intellect until they have
acquired very core, basic, and special intuitions and concepts. It is those very intuitions
that will even make it possible to say, "I am now in mode of knowing that is prior to those
cognitions." But it will be a mere intellectual quibble about 'prior' until and unless I can
make myself more clear to you.

"All the concepts that the intellect creates — cause and effect, substance and attribute, body and soul, idea and reality, God and world, etc. — are there only in order to keep unified reality separated artificially into parts; and reason, without blurring the content thus created, without mystically obscuring the clarity of the intellect, has then to seek out the inner unity in the multiplicity. Reason thereby comes back to that from which the intellect had distanced itself: to the unified reality."

So despite my agreeing with that statement 100%, because of this living thesis/antithesis/synthesis of my understanding, I have to sound like I'm
pushing against it.

If it is true that we are wrong to look at the plant and think 'that' is the plant, ignoring that its actual reality is the Wholeness of all that came before and all that it is striving to become, this implies that we only step out of an intellectual illusion about 'this is a plant' if we are directly beholding the entirety of its reality, an entirety that is beyond a 'higher perception'. I mean to say, we don't want to make the error of thinking that when we truely see the plant in its wholeness we are seeing a (spiritual) perception that could be drawn. No, of course not. The non-intellectualized 'seeing' of the actual plant is not at all a 'seeing' but simply uniting intuiting with what it is. So even when we speak of its wholeness as being the process of its becoming, we are still in the intellectual illusion which includes the 'higher' modes of perception. Or, in other words, just as differentiating the 'parts' of the plant in space is false. So is differentiating the 'stages' of the plants life. When the Reason grasps the plant it isn't merely looking wider in space and time, it is disregarding the illusion of both. That does not mean it is 'seeing' the plant that is 'really there' beyond the spacial and temporal experiences of it that our bodies generate.

All this to say: I am going to see if a possible creative bridge might be possible.

Hopefully, you'll grasp with a 12% intuition that I'm not disagreeing with anything you are saying despite my 'anthetical' push for distinctions that seem point-missing :) Typically people just stop talking when it seems they aren't seeing each other's points. But the 12% is where the action is in my opinion.
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Re: A clean room for a specific exploration

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findingblanks wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:27 pm "So when you write, "I am suggesting that our very understanding is both a capturing of direct reality and a distorting of it", it appears to me you referring specifically to intellect as "understanding" while excluding higher cognition."

Well put! No, the important explicating role played by the intellect (which both 'clarifies' and 'distorts' necessarily) is also shared by other modes of explication, including those that rely on what some refer to as 'higher' modes.

Yes, the interesting problem I have is trying to find words that speak to you. That's my problem, so to speak :) Not yours! Unless I find a creative way to help generate that bridge, you will be left feeling I don't understand what you are saying and you will be left being quite certain my comments miss the point. If I ever succeed in this quest with you, it is not that you'll suddenly realize we are in complete agreement and have no different point of view. But you will realize that the kinds of distinctions I am making aren't quite so point-missing as they seem.

Partially I think this is a challenge simply because of the nature of the content itself. But it also has a very connection to the living-dialectic you referred to above. Whatever point we cherish is always already instancing a thesis aspect, a antithesis aspect, and a synthesis aspect. Our problem is that we mostly unconsciously experience our understanding as synthesis only. Therefore, from that point of view, another perspective that seems to miss the point is often really a living and necessary 'antheses' or 'synthesis' that we, understandably, experience as lacking. One way I gaurd against this is that I try to at least grasp as clearly as possible (not intellectually but cognitively) the way in which any of my understandings are standing in all three positions and, therefore, even when I am in apparent disagreement with another's point, I must be able to see that it has something I'm missing to an extent. Otherwise, ego simply pushes to convince the other or to 'understand' them until they see my point.

I will say something right now about the 'prior' we are talking about, but for all the reasons I just stated, it is obvious to me it will fall into the creative and very necessary abyss of shared understanding we are cultivating. If I do figure out a new way in eventually, then I will be able to make the following points much more fruitfully to you.

Yes, I would say that the intellect inherently distorts.
But that isn't exactly the 'distortion' I'm speaking of.
And 'distortion' as an adjective does indeed distort my point a bit.
Yet, it also helps point to it a bit.

We can find in Steiner descriptions of Inspiration and Imagination
in which he describes the way in which both modes of higher knowledge
'distort' the Truth to a degree. He isn't speaking negatively of them when
he points out that they necessarily leave some 'distance' between the
Living Intuition and how it incarnates as an Inspiration or an Imagination.


But rather than referring to Steiner, I'll say that I appreciate that you and I
both seem to be on the same page regarding how utterly essential the
intellect is in explicating an Intuition and, yet, how we should be very
sensitive to the ways our creative and useful intellectual 'chopping' is
always both helping the understanding of ourselves and others and
creating unique challenges to it. And that is unavoidable.

I say that the same kind (not the same thing, just kind) of process
is taking place with the higher modes of cognition. Since we aren't
claiming that only Steiner's schema of 'higher' counts, I'll refrain from
using his schema. But even to say 'higher' is already making a consession
in that direction. Which is fine.

But this is all to say that in my view it isn't merely the intellect which
necessarily incarnates (explicates) The Word (or Intuition or...) but any
actual intuition is moving through 'higher' forms of knowing in order to
even reach the intellect, each of which (via its role in incarnating The Word)
creatively 'distorts' in order to speak in communion with an Other.

The use of 'distort' is only useful if we don't take it in the pejorative sense. Yes,
this incarnating process also could be described as 'clarifying.' That is true! But
the only reason I might avoid saying 'clarify' is that that tends to overlook the
metamorphosis that happens in incarnation intuition. But it is just as true to say
that these modes of knowledge ("higher" or however we label them) 'clarify' the
truth as to say they 'distort' or metamorphose or 'birth'. Birth isn't a bad
metaphor in that the child is a 'distortion' of the parent while carrying
the life forward. Father and Son metaphor.

............

One day my daughter was playing by herself outside. She was about five.
I was reading under a nearby tree. She ran up to a nearby big rock and placed
both hands on it. I saw a smile grow on her face. She then twisted herself
towards the sun behind her and said, "Thank you sun!" I asked her why she
thanked the sun and she said, "For making the rock so warm and cozy."

She was five. And certainly intellect was involved with her the joy and
gratitude she felt well up within her has she felt the warmth. If she was a dog
or a snail, I'm not sure she would have had that sacred experience of gratitude.
But even though her intellect was involved, I don't think it is accurate to say
that she first unconsciously separated each 'item' of her experience into 'parts.'
Somebody might claim her experience of gratitude in the sun warming the stone
was the function of Reason itself. Somebody might want to point out that
there is a difference between that kind of Reason and the Reason cultivated by
an adult in order to grasp directly the unity of the Cosmos.

I don't think my daughter could have had that experience without having basic
intuitions and concepts (not the same thing obviously) of 'sun' and 'stone' and 'hands'
and 'me' and 'warm' and one-thousands other 'things.' And I don't think the spiritual
scientist or Goethean or XYZ can speak of what is 'prior' to intellect until they have
acquired very core, basic, and special intuitions and concepts. It is those very intuitions
that will even make it possible to say, "I am now in mode of knowing that is prior to those
cognitions." But it will be a mere intellectual quibble about 'prior' until and unless I can
make myself more clear to you.

"All the concepts that the intellect creates — cause and effect, substance and attribute, body and soul, idea and reality, God and world, etc. — are there only in order to keep unified reality separated artificially into parts; and reason, without blurring the content thus created, without mystically obscuring the clarity of the intellect, has then to seek out the inner unity in the multiplicity. Reason thereby comes back to that from which the intellect had distanced itself: to the unified reality."

So despite my agreeing with that statement 100%, because of this living thesis/antithesis/synthesis of my understanding, I have to sound like I'm
pushing against it.

If it is true that we are wrong to look at the plant and think 'that' is the plant, ignoring that its actual reality is the Wholeness of all that came before and all that it is striving to become, this implies that we only step out of an intellectual illusion about 'this is a plant' if we are directly beholding the entirety of its reality, an entirety that is beyond a 'higher perception'. I mean to say, we don't want to make the error of thinking that when we truely see the plant in its wholeness we are seeing a (spiritual) perception that could be drawn. No, of course not. The non-intellectualized 'seeing' of the actual plant is not at all a 'seeing' but simply uniting intuiting with what it is. So even when we speak of its wholeness as being the process of its becoming, we are still in the intellectual illusion which includes the 'higher' modes of perception. Or, in other words, just as differentiating the 'parts' of the plant in space is false. So is differentiating the 'stages' of the plants life. When the Reason grasps the plant it isn't merely looking wider in space and time, it is disregarding the illusion of both. That does not mean it is 'seeing' the plant that is 'really there' beyond the spacial and temporal experiences of it that our bodies generate.

All this to say: I am going to see if a possible creative bridge might be possible.

Hopefully, you'll grasp with a 12% intuition that I'm not disagreeing with anything you are saying despite my 'anthetical' push for distinctions that seem point-missing :) Typically people just stop talking when it seems they aren't seeing each other's points. But the 12% is where the action is in my opinion.


Thank you again for the elaborated reply. I do think it is helping further triangulate your position and our specific areas of disagreement.

Right now, it seems to me you are taking an "all or nothing" approach to higher cognition. So let's grant that there are 3 higher modes of cognition for purposes of illustration, XYZ (roughly corresponding to Imagination, Inspiration, Intuition).

Intellect, we both agree, distorts the unified Reality specifically by splitting it into two. When we move from intellection to cognition X, we both agree that X distorts the Reality as well. My claim is that the distortion is much less severe and therefore the phenomena perceived are much more easily and precisely traced back to their sources. If that were not the case, cognition X would be practically the same as cognition Z. It sounds like you deny that higher cognition moves us 'closer' to the noumena, i.e. they recquire just as much abstract "explication" as the intellect, or that the difference is so small as to be negligble?

To be clear, I agree there is a major difference between explicating the higher modes of cognition with intellectual concepts and actually experiencing the higher modes. However, I do not think it is impossible for the intellect to usefully understand concepts which have been 'brought back' from the spiritual realms via higher cognition. All that Cleric has written here in his imaginative posts is pretty clear evidence of that IMO. So maybe you are also saying that the intellect cannot even usefully speak or read about these concepts relayed from higher cognition, so all such detailed accounts from a personality such as Steiner's (or Cleric) should be held as only an interesting data point to consider and nothing more?

PS - I will come back to your point made re: the illustration of your daughter later.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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