Dune & the Deeper Meaning of Sci Fi

[Lou Gold]

It is really sad to see how the author's own cynicism is projected onto a great work of art, when there is nothing in a fair viewing of the movie which lends credence to anything written above. There is definitely the archetypal descent into the underworld, by the Charioteer of the soul (I am sure you will appreciate that imagery from the Gita), and encounter with the "Guardian of the Threshold" before crossing over. Yet that is the exact opposite of "cynical self-destruction" - it is Self-knowledge which empowers and enlivens the soul, again of the sort Krishna bestows upon Arjuna in the beautiful epic imagery of the Gita. It is tragic that readers of this article will never know the truth depths of the cinematic experience because they are conned by the materialist socialist perspective.

I did not read the books yet and really have no knowledge of Herbert's philosophy (although I am very curious), but that of Dennis Villeneuve (the director of Dune) is pretty clear from his other various movies. The archetypal themes of his movies do not cynically reject the Hero's journey and the Christian themes of sacrifice and redemption, but enrich them with Imagination. I really liked Arrival the most, followed by Prisoners and then Dune and Blade Runner 2049. People miss out on so much deep meaning in these movies by casting their rich ideas down into materialist abstractions. Every great aesthetic experience becomes a tool for scoring cheap political points instead of an amazingly instructive lesson on the essential Self and the story of our most authentic journey through life.

It's interesting to me to observe that the christian and the socialist always see the other as responsible for the con. My personal naive take is that everything created has an 'evil twin' (for example essential self / false self) and this is what makes meaningful worrying about trickster satanic forces. In this sense, I believe that a myth or storyline that heightens this tension and even leaves it unresolved as a cautionary (hubris/humility) concern would be of great value. I don't know the other Villeneuve movies but I await enthusiastically for Dune: Part 2.

PS: Somehow, I'm reminded of a story told by Wade Davis in his The Serpent and the Rainbow. Anthropologist Davis is invited by a Vodun priest to train under him. Davis declines, explaining that he already has a spiritual path but questions the priest about whether there's both white and black magic in his path. The priest says, "both but the difference with our way is that we know the difference."

[AshvinP]

It is really sad to see how the author's own cynicism is projected onto a great work of art, when there is nothing in a fair viewing of the movie which lends credence to anything written above. There is definitely the archetypal descent into the underworld, by the Charioteer of the soul (I am sure you will appreciate that imagery from the Gita), and encounter with the "Guardian of the Threshold" before crossing over. Yet that is the exact opposite of "cynical self-destruction" - it is Self-knowledge which empowers and enlivens the soul, again of the sort Krishna bestows upon Arjuna in the beautiful epic imagery of the Gita. It is tragic that readers of this article will never know the truth depths of the cinematic experience because they are conned by the materialist socialist perspective.

I did not read the books yet and really have no knowledge of Herbert's philosophy (although I am very curious), but that of Dennis Villeneuve (the director of Dune) is pretty clear from his other various movies. The archetypal themes of his movies do not cynically reject the Hero's journey and the Christian themes of sacrifice and redemption, but enrich them with Imagination. I really liked Arrival the most, followed by Prisoners and then Dune and Blade Runner 2049. People miss out on so much deep meaning in these movies by casting their rich ideas down into materialist abstractions. Every great aesthetic experience becomes a tool for scoring cheap political points instead of an amazingly instructive lesson on the essential Self and the story of our most authentic journey through life.

It's interesting to me to observe that the christian and the socialist always see the other as responsible for the con. My personal naive take is that everything created has an 'evil twin' (for example essential self / false self) and this is what makes meaningful worrying about trickster satanic forces. In this sense, I believe that a myth or storyline that heightens this tension and even leaves it unresolved as a cautionary (hubris/humility) concern would be of great value. I don't know the other Villeneuve movies but I await enthusiastically for Dune: Part 2.

PS: Somehow, I'm reminded of a story told by Wade Davis in his The Serpent and the Rainbow. Anthropologist Davis is invited by a Vodun priest to train under him. Davis declines, explaining that he already has a spiritual path but questions the priest about whether there's both white and black magic in his path. The priest says, "both but the difference with our way is that we know the difference."

Lou,

It's not the socialist who is responsible for the con... it is the underlying over-materialized or over-spiritualized worldview which drives that ideology and all ideologies. It is the same ideological forces of the Christian fundamentalist, the Islamic fundamentalist, the Eastern mystical nondual traditions, the "new atheists", etc. It is even found in the analytical idealism of Western tradition. The con is very consistent and easy to perceive if one knows what to look for, which is the reimagining of all archetypal spirituality into concepts which are purely material, highly abstract and/or deemed unknowable by decree. We don't need to posit "Satanic forces" one way or another to observe this process taking place right before or under our eyes. The "evil twin" is within each individual person and it is ideology of one sort or another which allows us to avoid confronting him within, at the cost of projecting him everywhere without. A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love.

We, however, are not prisoners. No traps or snares have been set around us, and there is nothing that should frighten or upset us. We have been put into life as into the element we most accord with, and we have, moreover, through thousands of years of adaptation, come to resemble this life so greatly that when we hold still, through a fortunate mimicry we can hardly be differentiated from everything around us. We have no reason to harbor any mistrust against our world, for it is not against us. If it has terrors, they are our terrors; if it has abysses, these abysses belong to us; if there are dangers, we must try to love them. And if only we arrange our life in accordance with the principle which tells us that we must always trust in the difficult, then what now appears to us as the most alien will become our most intimate and trusted experience. How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love.

[Lou Gold]

It is really sad to see how the author's own cynicism is projected onto a great work of art, when there is nothing in a fair viewing of the movie which lends credence to anything written above. There is definitely the archetypal descent into the underworld, by the Charioteer of the soul (I am sure you will appreciate that imagery from the Gita), and encounter with the "Guardian of the Threshold" before crossing over. Yet that is the exact opposite of "cynical self-destruction" - it is Self-knowledge which empowers and enlivens the soul, again of the sort Krishna bestows upon Arjuna in the beautiful epic imagery of the Gita. It is tragic that readers of this article will never know the truth depths of the cinematic experience because they are conned by the materialist socialist perspective.

I did not read the books yet and really have no knowledge of Herbert's philosophy (although I am very curious), but that of Dennis Villeneuve (the director of Dune) is pretty clear from his other various movies. The archetypal themes of his movies do not cynically reject the Hero's journey and the Christian themes of sacrifice and redemption, but enrich them with Imagination. I really liked Arrival the most, followed by Prisoners and then Dune and Blade Runner 2049. People miss out on so much deep meaning in these movies by casting their rich ideas down into materialist abstractions. Every great aesthetic experience becomes a tool for scoring cheap political points instead of an amazingly instructive lesson on the essential Self and the story of our most authentic journey through life.

It's interesting to me to observe that the christian and the socialist always see the other as responsible for the con. My personal naive take is that everything created has an 'evil twin' (for example essential self / false self) and this is what makes meaningful worrying about trickster satanic forces. In this sense, I believe that a myth or storyline that heightens this tension and even leaves it unresolved as a cautionary (hubris/humility) concern would be of great value. I don't know the other Villeneuve movies but I await enthusiastically for Dune: Part 2.

PS: Somehow, I'm reminded of a story told by Wade Davis in his The Serpent and the Rainbow. Anthropologist Davis is invited by a Vodun priest to train under him. Davis declines, explaining that he already has a spiritual path but questions the priest about whether there's both white and black magic in his path. The priest says, "both but the difference with our way is that we know the difference."

Lou,

It's not the socialist who is responsible for the con... it is the underlying over-materialized or over-spiritualized worldview which drives that ideology and all ideologies. It is the same ideological forces of the Christian fundamentalist, the Islamic fundamentalist, the Eastern mystical nondual traditions, the "new atheists", etc. It is even found in the analytical idealism of Western tradition. The con is very consistent and easy to perceive if one knows what to look for, which is the reimagining of all archetypal spirituality into concepts which are purely material, highly abstract and/or deemed unknowable by decree. We don't need to posit "Satanic forces" one way or another to observe this process taking place right before or under our eyes. The "evil twin" is within each individual person and it is ideology of one sort or another which allows us to avoid confronting him within, at the cost of projecting him everywhere without. A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love.

We, however, are not prisoners. No traps or snares have been set around us, and there is nothing that should frighten or upset us. We have been put into life as into the element we most accord with, and we have, moreover, through thousands of years of adaptation, come to resemble this life so greatly that when we hold still, through a fortunate mimicry we can hardly be differentiated from everything around us. We have no reason to harbor any mistrust against our world, for it is not against us. If it has terrors, they are our terrors; if it has abysses, these abysses belong to us; if there are dangers, we must try to love them. And if only we arrange our life in accordance with the principle which tells us that we must always trust in the difficult, then what now appears to us as the most alien will become our most intimate and trusted experience. How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love.

"A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love."


Those who have read the full book say that this is not at all how the Herbert story turns out. I'm not defending Herbert, just saying that you seem to be projecting something onto his story. I'm told across the Dune books Paul does become a messianic figure leading to a great jihad that he can't stop from spreading bloodshed in his name across the universe. But what do I know.

I love Rilke.

And also TS Eliot:

With the drawing of this Love and the voice of this Calling

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, unremembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree

Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.
Quick now, here, now, always--
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flames are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one.

[AshvinP]

It's interesting to me to observe that the christian and the socialist always see the other as responsible for the con. My personal naive take is that everything created has an 'evil twin' (for example essential self / false self) and this is what makes meaningful worrying about trickster satanic forces. In this sense, I believe that a myth or storyline that heightens this tension and even leaves it unresolved as a cautionary (hubris/humility) concern would be of great value. I don't know the other Villeneuve movies but I await enthusiastically for Dune: Part 2.

PS: Somehow, I'm reminded of a story told by Wade Davis in his The Serpent and the Rainbow. Anthropologist Davis is invited by a Vodun priest to train under him. Davis declines, explaining that he already has a spiritual path but questions the priest about whether there's both white and black magic in his path. The priest says, "both but the difference with our way is that we know the difference."

Lou,

It's not the socialist who is responsible for the con... it is the underlying over-materialized or over-spiritualized worldview which drives that ideology and all ideologies. It is the same ideological forces of the Christian fundamentalist, the Islamic fundamentalist, the Eastern mystical nondual traditions, the "new atheists", etc. It is even found in the analytical idealism of Western tradition. The con is very consistent and easy to perceive if one knows what to look for, which is the reimagining of all archetypal spirituality into concepts which are purely material, highly abstract and/or deemed unknowable by decree. We don't need to posit "Satanic forces" one way or another to observe this process taking place right before or under our eyes. The "evil twin" is within each individual person and it is ideology of one sort or another which allows us to avoid confronting him within, at the cost of projecting him everywhere without. A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love.

We, however, are not prisoners. No traps or snares have been set around us, and there is nothing that should frighten or upset us. We have been put into life as into the element we most accord with, and we have, moreover, through thousands of years of adaptation, come to resemble this life so greatly that when we hold still, through a fortunate mimicry we can hardly be differentiated from everything around us. We have no reason to harbor any mistrust against our world, for it is not against us. If it has terrors, they are our terrors; if it has abysses, these abysses belong to us; if there are dangers, we must try to love them. And if only we arrange our life in accordance with the principle which tells us that we must always trust in the difficult, then what now appears to us as the most alien will become our most intimate and trusted experience. How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love.

"A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love."


Those who have read the full book say that this is not at all how the Herbert story turns out. I'm not defending Herbert, just saying that you seem to be projecting something onto his story. I'm told across the Dune books Paul does become a messianic figure leading to a great jihad that he can't stop from spreading bloodshed in his name across the universe. But what do I know.

Like I said, I am talking about the movie Dune, directed by Villenueve, not the books or Herbert.

[AshvinP]

Lou,

It's not the socialist who is responsible for the con... it is the underlying over-materialized or over-spiritualized worldview which drives that ideology and all ideologies. It is the same ideological forces of the Christian fundamentalist, the Islamic fundamentalist, the Eastern mystical nondual traditions, the "new atheists", etc. It is even found in the analytical idealism of Western tradition. The con is very consistent and easy to perceive if one knows what to look for, which is the reimagining of all archetypal spirituality into concepts which are purely material, highly abstract and/or deemed unknowable by decree. We don't need to posit "Satanic forces" one way or another to observe this process taking place right before or under our eyes. The "evil twin" is within each individual person and it is ideology of one sort or another which allows us to avoid confronting him within, at the cost of projecting him everywhere without. A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love.

"A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love."


Those who have read the full book say that this is not at all how the Herbert story turns out. I'm not defending Herbert, just saying that you seem to be projecting something onto his story. I'm told across the Dune books Paul does become a messianic figure leading to a great jihad that he can't stop from spreading bloodshed in his name across the universe. But what do I know.

Like I said, I am talking about the movie Dune, directed by Villenueve, not the books or Herbert.

But also this sounds exactly like a retelling of archetypal Christian story of Western civilization (I am sure the word "jihad" is never used). It sounds like you (or your article) are trying to convince us Paul is not the protoganist in the story... which is a rather clumsy sleight of hand : )

[Soul_of_Shu]

There are some good interviews with Villeneuve about the making of Dune, but mostly about his film-making process, with sparse talk of his interpretation of Herbert's mythical themes. We'll have to wait for Dune 2 to see where it eventually goes in that regard. However, if intrigued enough to search out those interviews, he does bring some insightful metaphysical ideas to that process, especially as it relates to the how he feels that such journeys into alien landscapes are truly journeys into our own psyches. The interview that seems almost begging to happen would be between Denis and his Quebecois compatriot Jonathan Pageau, given Pageau's interpretation of the symbolism of Blade Runner 2049 that may be of interest here.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Clearly DV puts a lot of nuanced thought into the interpretation of the symbolism ...

[Lou Gold]

Like I said, I am talking about the movie Dune, directed by Villenueve, not the books or Herbert.

But also this sounds exactly like a retelling of archetypal Christian story of Western civilization (I am sure the word "jihad" is never used). It sounds like you (or your article) are trying to convince us Paul is not the protoganist in the story... which is a rather clumsy sleight of hand : )
[/quote]

"Jihad" surprised me as well but my friend who is a great Dune fan assured me that it is precisely the word used by Herbert. This is what makes me suspect projection on your part. I only know that I loved the movie. As I learn more of the written Dune it appears that it is loaded with intriguing ambiguities and layers of nuance that defy clear resolution and thus retains a kind of mysteriousness and tension captured only in a great work of art. It will be interesting to see how DV will handle them in the second part where the story really unfolds.

[Lou Gold]

Ashvin,

You say:

It's not the socialist who is responsible for the con... it is the underlying over-materialized or over-spiritualized worldview which drives that ideology and all ideologies. It is the same ideological forces of the Christian fundamentalist, the Islamic fundamentalist, the Eastern mystical nondual traditions, the "new atheists", etc. It is even found in the analytical idealism of Western tradition. The con is very consistent and easy to perceive if one knows what to look for, which is the reimagining of all archetypal spirituality into concepts which are purely material, highly abstract and/or deemed unknowable by decree. We don't need to posit "Satanic forces" one way or another to observe this process taking place right before or under our eyes. The "evil twin" is within each individual person and it is ideology of one sort or another which allows us to avoid confronting him within, at the cost of projecting him everywhere without. A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love.

I don't believe it's the "materialization" in ideology that is problematic but rather it is the quality in the ideologue that makes him or her feel so certain in terms of spirit or matter or whatever. One can be blinded by the light as well as getting lost in the dark. I would say that when the mysteriousness begins to vanish from one's view it's a good time to beware.

[AshvinP]

Like I said, I am talking about the movie Dune, directed by Villenueve, not the books or Herbert.

But also this sounds exactly like a retelling of archetypal Christian story of Western civilization (I am sure the word "jihad" is never used). It sounds like you (or your article) are trying to convince us Paul is not the protoganist in the story... which is a rather clumsy sleight of hand : )

"Jihad" surprised me as well but my friend who is a great Dune fan assured me that it is precisely the word used by Herbert. This is what makes me suspect projection on your part. I only know that I loved the movie. As I learn more of the written Dune it appears that it is loaded with intriguing ambiguities and layers of nuance that defy clear resolution and thus retains a kind of mysteriousness and tension captured only in a great work of art. It will be interesting to see how DV will handle them in the second part where the story really unfolds.
[/quote]


Did you see the movie, Lou? I could break down almost scene for scene how they match with the Judeo-Christian scripture and tradition. The fact you refuse to accept what is obvious, perhaps without even seeing the movie, and instead relying on a self-admitted ideological website review, makes me think you are projecting your own unfamiliarity with the content as a "mystery" of the movie. The only "mystery" is how consciously Villenueve wanted to also include esoteric Wisdom in the film. That esoteric tradition is filled with plenty of nuance and subtleties, but that's not the same as, "no one really knows what it means so it must support my political ideology".