You say:
It's not the socialist who is responsible for the con... it is the underlying over-materialized or over-spiritualized worldview which drives that ideology and all ideologies. It is the same ideological forces of the Christian fundamentalist, the Islamic fundamentalist, the Eastern mystical nondual traditions, the "new atheists", etc. It is even found in the analytical idealism of Western tradition. The con is very consistent and easy to perceive if one knows what to look for, which is the reimagining of all archetypal spirituality into concepts which are purely material, highly abstract and/or deemed unknowable by decree. We don't need to posit "Satanic forces" one way or another to observe this process taking place right before or under our eyes. The "evil twin" is within each individual person and it is ideology of one sort or another which allows us to avoid confronting him within, at the cost of projecting him everywhere without. A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love.
I don't believe it's the "materialization" in ideology that is problematic but rather it is the quality in the ideologue that makes him or her feel so certain in terms of spirit or matter or whatever. One can be blinded by the light as well as getting lost in the dark. I would say that when the mysteriousness begins to vanish from one's view it's a good time to beware.
Yes, and that quality of certainty is nowhere more evident than in materialism, mysticism, and fundamentalism and their pet political views. What could possibly be a bugger claim to certainty than one who is convinced one's own limited perspective is the summit of all knowing, making him a complete being who is evolved enough to know that all ancient mythology and spirituality from ancient India to Palestine can be reduced to "fascism", "will to power", "colonialism", "wish fulfillment", "superstition", etc.? That is unwarranted hubris of the most extreme sort.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
You say:
It's not the socialist who is responsible for the con... it is the underlying over-materialized or over-spiritualized worldview which drives that ideology and all ideologies. It is the same ideological forces of the Christian fundamentalist, the Islamic fundamentalist, the Eastern mystical nondual traditions, the "new atheists", etc. It is even found in the analytical idealism of Western tradition. The con is very consistent and easy to perceive if one knows what to look for, which is the reimagining of all archetypal spirituality into concepts which are purely material, highly abstract and/or deemed unknowable by decree. We don't need to posit "Satanic forces" one way or another to observe this process taking place right before or under our eyes. The "evil twin" is within each individual person and it is ideology of one sort or another which allows us to avoid confronting him within, at the cost of projecting him everywhere without. A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love.
I don't believe it's the "materialization" in ideology that is problematic but rather it is the quality in the ideologue that makes him or her feel so certain in terms of spirit or matter or whatever. One can be blinded by the light as well as getting lost in the dark. I would say that when the mysteriousness begins to vanish from one's view it's a good time to beware.
Yes, and that quality of certainty is nowhere more evident than in materialism, mysticism, and fundamentalism and their pet political views. What could possibly be a bugger claim to certainty than one who is convinced one's own limited perspective is the summit of all knowing, making him a complete being who is evolved enough to know that all ancient mythology and spirituality from ancient India to Palestine can be reduced to "fascism", "will to power", "colonialism", "wish fulfillment", "superstition", etc.? That is unwarranted hubris of the most extreme sort.
Well, that certainly sounds certain!
Like you, I vastly prefer Rilke's romantic idealism and mystical poetics.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
As mentioned, I haven't actually read the Dune books, but a deeper look into the mind of Herbert does seem to reveal that he was far more politically motivated in his story-making, as opposed to being metaphysically inspired—notwithstanding that the archetypal mythos of the hero's journey, right out of Homer's Iliad, is still the underlying theme, even if more subconsciously written into it. There's is also a case to be made that Herbert was far more influenced by Islamic/Sufi symbolism, lexicon and motifs in his rendition of the hero's journey, a rendition mainly intending to caution against the bastardization and co-opting of that mythos, thus turning it into a messianic cult based in a gross misunderstanding, if not utter disregard, of its true spiritual meaning, to achieve political ends—no different from what happened to the Jesus teachings once bastardized for the same ends. In any case, it should come as no surprise that Villeneuve, given his own Quebecois Catholic roots, would interpret the mythos through that culture-specific filter. Had it been a Hindu director, I suspect that would have had impact on the interpretation as well. So it would seem that we need to distinguish between an interpretation through the mind's eye of Villeneuve's vision, and Herbert's original vision, albeit they are both variations on the same ancient archetypal mythos.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:30 pm
As mentioned, I haven't actually read the Dune books, but a deeper look into the mind of Herbert does seem to reveal that he was far more politically motivated in his story-making, as opposed to being metaphysically inspired—notwithstanding that the archetypal mythos of the hero's journey, right out of Homer's Iliad, is still the underlying theme, even if more subconsciously written into it. There's is also a case to be made that Herbert was far more influenced by Islamic/Sufi symbolism, lexicon and motifs in his rendition of the hero's journey, a rendition mainly intending to caution against the bastardization and co-opting of that mythos, thus turning it into a messianic cult based in a gross misunderstanding, if not utter disregard, of its true spiritual meaning, to achieve political ends—no different from what happened to the Jesus teachings once bastardized for the same ends. In any case, it should come as no surprise that Villeneuve, given his own Quebecois Catholic roots, would interpret the mythos through that culture-specific filter. Had it been a Hindu director, I suspect that would have had impact on the interpretation as well. So it would seem that we need to distinguish between an interpretation through the mind's eye of Villeneuve's vision, and Herbert's original vision, albeit they are both variations on the same ancient archetypal mythos.
Excellent Dana. Truly well said. A deep bow of gratitude to you.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
You say:
It's not the socialist who is responsible for the con... it is the underlying over-materialized or over-spiritualized worldview which drives that ideology and all ideologies. It is the same ideological forces of the Christian fundamentalist, the Islamic fundamentalist, the Eastern mystical nondual traditions, the "new atheists", etc. It is even found in the analytical idealism of Western tradition. The con is very consistent and easy to perceive if one knows what to look for, which is the reimagining of all archetypal spirituality into concepts which are purely material, highly abstract and/or deemed unknowable by decree. We don't need to posit "Satanic forces" one way or another to observe this process taking place right before or under our eyes. The "evil twin" is within each individual person and it is ideology of one sort or another which allows us to avoid confronting him within, at the cost of projecting him everywhere without. A movie like Dune is clearly telling the archetypal Christ story of the individual who rejects the easy way out, who does not let the cup pass from him, and who chooses instead to confront the demons of the world, including his own, with faith, courage, and love.
I don't believe it's the "materialization" in ideology that is problematic but rather it is the quality in the ideologue that makes him or her feel so certain in terms of spirit or matter or whatever. One can be blinded by the light as well as getting lost in the dark. I would say that when the mysteriousness begins to vanish from one's view it's a good time to beware.
Yes, and that quality of certainty is nowhere more evident than in materialism, mysticism, and fundamentalism and their pet political views. What could possibly be a bugger claim to certainty than one who is convinced one's own limited perspective is the summit of all knowing, making him a complete being who is evolved enough to know that all ancient mythology and spirituality from ancient India to Palestine can be reduced to "fascism", "will to power", "colonialism", "wish fulfillment", "superstition", etc.? That is unwarranted hubris of the most extreme sort.
Well, that certainly sounds certain!
Like you, I vastly prefer Rilke's romantic idealism and mystical poetics.
PS, Ashvin...
I'm not sure that Frank Herbert would have held Rilke in high regard.
Perhaps you are aware that Rilke had strong views on the Left but later in life bent toward fascism on the Right? Wikipedia notes:
Rilke supported the Russian Revolution in 1917 as well as the Bavarian Soviet Republic in 1919.[30] He became friends with Ernst Toller and mourned the deaths of Rosa Luxemburg, Kurt Eisner, and Karl Liebknecht.[31] He confided that of the five or six newspapers he read daily, those on the far left came closest to his own opinions.[32] He developed a reputation for supporting left-wing causes and thus, out of fear for his own safety, became more reticent about politics after the Bavarian Republic was crushed by the right-wing Freikorps.[32] In January and February 1926, Rilke wrote three letters to the Mussolini-adversary Aurelia Gallarati Scotti [it] in which he praised Benito Mussolini and described fascism as a healing agent.[33][34][35]
Rilke is one of the more popular, best-selling poets in the United States.[8] In popular culture, Rilke is frequently quoted or referenced in television programs, motion pictures, music and other works when these works discuss the subject of love or angels.[50] His work is often described as "mystical" and has been seized by the New Age community and self-help books.[4] Rilke has been reinterpreted "as a master who can lead us to a more fulfilled and less anxious life".[5][51]
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:30 pm
As mentioned, I haven't actually read the Dune books, but a deeper look into the mind of Herbert does seem to reveal that he was far more politically motivated in his story-making, as opposed to being metaphysically inspired—notwithstanding that the archetypal mythos of the hero's journey, right out of Homer's Iliad, is still the underlying theme, even if more subconsciously written into it. There's is also a case to be made that Herbert was far more influenced by Islamic/Sufi symbolism, lexicon and motifs in his rendition of the hero's journey, a rendition mainly intending to caution against the bastardization and co-opting of that mythos, thus turning it into a messianic cult based in a gross misunderstanding, if not utter disregard, of its true spiritual meaning, to achieve political ends—no different from what happened to the Jesus teachings once bastardized for the same ends. In any case, it should come as no surprise that Villeneuve, given his own Quebecois Catholic roots, would interpret the mythos through that culture-specific filter. Had it been a Hindu director, I suspect that would have had impact on the interpretation as well. So it would seem that we need to distinguish between an interpretation through the mind's eye of Villeneuve's vision, and Herbert's original vision, albeit they are both variations on the same ancient archetypal mythos.
What I suspect we really need to distinguish between here is the exoteric perception (outer "interpretation") and the esoteric conceptual meaning (inner archetypal story). My next installment of mechanism essay will elaborate, but suffice to say these can easily take the form of relation between negative image (perception) to image (conception) in the modern age. I suspect that may be what happened with Herbert's books (assuming your comment above is accurate, which I have no reason to doubt at this time) and Villenueve is sort of penetrating back to the archetypal spiritual image through the materialistic negative image of Herbert's story with the former's imaginative rendition. In which case, it's really fortunate for us that Villenueve got his hands on this particular project!
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Yes, and that quality of certainty is nowhere more evident than in materialism, mysticism, and fundamentalism and their pet political views. What could possibly be a bugger claim to certainty than one who is convinced one's own limited perspective is the summit of all knowing, making him a complete being who is evolved enough to know that all ancient mythology and spirituality from ancient India to Palestine can be reduced to "fascism", "will to power", "colonialism", "wish fulfillment", "superstition", etc.? That is unwarranted hubris of the most extreme sort.
Well, that certainly sounds certain!
Like you, I vastly prefer Rilke's romantic idealism and mystical poetics.
PS, Ashvin...
I'm not sure that Frank Herbert would have held Rilke in high regard.
Perhaps you are aware that Rilke had strong views on the Left but later in life bent toward fascism on the Right? Wikipedia notes:
Rilke supported the Russian Revolution in 1917 as well as the Bavarian Soviet Republic in 1919.[30] He became friends with Ernst Toller and mourned the deaths of Rosa Luxemburg, Kurt Eisner, and Karl Liebknecht.[31] He confided that of the five or six newspapers he read daily, those on the far left came closest to his own opinions.[32] He developed a reputation for supporting left-wing causes and thus, out of fear for his own safety, became more reticent about politics after the Bavarian Republic was crushed by the right-wing Freikorps.[32] In January and February 1926, Rilke wrote three letters to the Mussolini-adversary Aurelia Gallarati Scotti [it] in which he praised Benito Mussolini and described fascism as a healing agent.[33][34][35]
Rilke is one of the more popular, best-selling poets in the United States.[8] In popular culture, Rilke is frequently quoted or referenced in television programs, motion pictures, music and other works when these works discuss the subject of love or angels.[50] His work is often described as "mystical" and has been seized by the New Age community and self-help books.[4] Rilke has been reinterpreted "as a master who can lead us to a more fulfilled and less anxious life".[5][51]
The above sounds not very unlike Heidegger's path as well. Again the exoteric-esoteric, or ego-shadow in more Jungian terms, dynamic could be at play here. What comes out from the soul-depths of a person's art and philosophy can easily be a spiritual compensation for a more materialist surface existence in social and political life. But it works the other way around too - a person who is inwardly materialistic in their world-conception can compensate by being outwardly more mystical-spiritual. I also have a feeling the above snippet from Wiki does not do Rilke's biography in this sphere justice, but that's just my own speculative feeling for now.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Here is a meaning-seeking dive into the dreamlike labyrinth that is the artwork of Denis Villeneuve ...
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:32 pm
Here is a meaning-seeking dive into the dreamlike labyrinth that is the artwork of Denis Villeneuve ...
Thank you for sharing this, it looks really interesting from the first few minutes. It reminded me of his movie Enemy, which I really liked. I remember there is an early scene where the main character mentions Hegel and his quote "that all great, world-historical facts and personages occur twice". This speaks directly to both the reflective nature of the physical-spiritual in Cosmic evolution, and the individual ego-shadow dynamic, who must be confronted when crossing the threshold of cognition. That movie is specifically about "dopplegangers", which is another expression of that same phenomenon.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
