Criticism

[Mark Tetzner]

The Swan of Tuonela done by Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic?

I would prefer this:

[Mark Tetzner]

Just that it puts you to sleep a little I find ...

You sure it wasn't from reading the thread?

I gave up the other sex since I incepted this thread.
I am not sure what can be done do make it interesting.
Its just people that are banging their heads against a wall
Here is another one, I am off to bed:

[AshvinP]

► Show Spoiler

Well, yes. The same as yours: inability.

I'm rather more inclined to go with futility ... now at 41 pages, and might well go on for 41 more, and no-one here has changed their starting premise one iota. BK would be no exception. Indeed, one would probably be better served by listening to music ...

Yet another great illustration of what happens when Thinking is left in the blind spot by all involved. Everyone here holds to some version of, "we can't really know anything beyond my own personal experience with intellectual cognition". Any knowledge beyond that is denied altogether or is viewed as an expression of mere faith and "conjecture". So the only possibility left is for everyone to remain fragmented within their own abstract universe of horizontal thinking and concepts, rearranging them in various ways like deck chairs on the Titanic. Only JW hints at the possibility of spiritual knowledge via "esthetic" knowing, but that "knowing" is also reduced to something more abstract and limited than what living Reason and Imaginative cognition is actually able to provide us if we approach it with oppenness, good will, patience, discpline, and deeply thoughtful effort.

As for music, some quotes to consider:

Everyone knows that time passes at a rate which varies according to the inner dispositions of the subject and to the events that come to affect his consciousness. Expectation, boredom, anguish, pleasure and pain, contemplation—all of these thus come to appear as different categories in the midst of which our life unfolds, and each of these determines a special psychological process, a particular tempo. These variations in psychological time are perceptible only as they are related to the primary sensation—whether conscious or unconscious—of real time, ontological time. . . . What gives the concept of musical time its special stamp is that this concept is born and develops as well outside of the categories of psychological time as it does simultaneously with them.”

- Igor Stravinsky, Poetics of Music (1947)


“The polyrhythm of the following example occurs in the ‘Eroica.’ No ear can analyze the plenitude of contrasts although it can experience it audially. In our enjoyment of music we employ levels of capacity far in advance of our organic development. The musical work of art [since Beethoven] permits us to establish capacities in practice enabling us to intuit subsequent man and his reality. It points once again to the absurdity of the old adage 'nothing is new under the sun’ invoked to discredit the limitless drive of creativity.”


- Hermann Scherchen, On the Essence of Music (1946)


In the “perception of a melody", we distinguish the tone given now,which we term the “perceived”, from those which have gone by, which we say are “not perceived.” On the other hand, we call the whole melody one that is perceived, although only the now-point actually is... Objectively considered, the measure no longer appears as “present” but as “past.” The whole melody, however, appears as present so long as it still sounds, so long as the notes belonging to it, intended in the one nexus of apprehensions, still sound. The melody is past only after the last note has gone.

- Edmund Husserl, On the Phenomenology of the Consciousness of Internal Time (1928)


To [understand the author, the pupil] must fall into step with him by adopting his gestures, his attitudes, his gait, by which I mean learning to read the text aloud with the proper intonation and inflection. The intelligence will later add shades of meaning. But shade and color are nothing without design. Before intellection properly so-called, there is the perception of structure and movement; there is, on the page one reads, punctuation and rhythm.

Now it is in indicating this structure and rhythm, in taking into consideration the temporal relations between the various sentences of the paragraph and the various parts of each sentence, in following uninterruptedly the crescendo of thought and feeling to the point musically indicated as the culminating point that the art of diction consists.
...
There is a certain analogy, be it said in passing, between the art of reading as I have just described it and the intuition I recommend to the philosopher. On the page it has chosen from the great book of the world, intuition seeks to recapture, to get back the movement and rhythm of the composition, to live again creative evolution by being one with it in sympathy. But I have embarked upon too long a digression; it is time to end it.

- Henri Bergson, The Creative Mind (1946)


Musical creations, however, must be generated anew again and again. They flow onward in the surge and swell of their harmonies and melodies, a reflection of the soul, which in its incarnations must always experience itself anew in the onward-flowing stream of time. Just as the human soul is an evolving entity, so its reflection here on earth is a flowing one. The deep effect of music is due to this kinship. Just as the human soul flows downward from its home... so do its shadows; the tones, the harmonies. Hence the intimate effect of music on the soul. Out of music the most primordial kinship speaks to the soul; in the most inwardly deep sense, sounds of home rebound from it. From the soul's primeval home, the spiritual world, the sounds of music are borne across to us and speak comfortingly and encouragingly to us in surging melodies and harmonies.

- Rudolf Steiner, The Inner Nature of Music and the Experience of Tone (1906)


"Don't only practise your art, but force your way into its secrets; art deserves that, for it and knowledge can raise man to the Divine."

- Ludwig von Beethoven

[Soul_of_Shu]

How do you have "1-st-person-perspective experiences" of universal consciousness?

Good point ... in this experience it's absent the 'person', and everyOne elses persons ... Can there be a 'solipsist' without at least one of those?

[JeffreyW]

So we have 'being' that can esthetically engross itself in tactile experiences which have more truth value than either scientific or analytical metaphysical speculations, and these tactile experiences teach us of the entangled nature of being or 'energy' which somehow despite being made of non experiential stuff seems to be tailored to 'reveal' it's nature in truth esthetically to the entangled recipient, of whom is a locus of experiential entanglement and not a separate subject experiencing objects over a divide DESPITE there being a threshold of ability to experience such truths of being that ends at the edges of the human brain (brain=consciousness in this), and the energy that is going into it's eyes and ears is non experiential other than when being processed by said brain, yet the experience of this energy reveals more truth about it than any scientific or analytical assumption? So qualia based realism it is then yes? Now we have a term for that, ah yes I believe it is called naive realism.... but we are not naive realists because this is all just quantum foam, BUT ALSO materialism is incorrect and qualia is BEING REVEALING ITSELF THROUGH EXPERIENCE, but 'being' isn't conscious at it's core, so what reveals itself to what exactly? Oh wait, so consciousness is the medium for something non conscious (being or energy) to 'know' itself, but if neither consciousness nor experience is fundamental to being then why is being accentuating itself through this medium, and how? Oh wait, you never said anything of the sort nor made any such claims apparently and no one understands what you are saying.... well then

Well, no. But you do show a talent for building strawmen. Would you like a serious conversation instead?

[JeffreyW]

► Show Spoiler

Well, yes. The same as yours: inability.

I'm rather more inclined to go with futility ... now at 41 pages, and might well go on for 41 more, and no-one here has changed their starting premise one iota. BK would be no exception. Indeed, one would probably be better served by listening to music ...

Yet another great illustration of what happens when Thinking is left in the blind spot by all involved. Everyone here holds to some version of, "we can't really know anything beyond my own personal experience with intellectual cognition". Any knowledge beyond that is denied altogether or is viewed as an expression of mere faith and "conjecture". So the only possibility left is for everyone to remain fragmented within their own abstract universe of horizontal thinking and concepts, rearranging them in various ways like deck chairs on the Titanic. Only JW hints at the possibility of spiritual knowledge via "esthetic" knowing, but that "knowing" is also reduced to something more abstract and limited than what living Reason and Imaginative cognition is actually able to provide us if we approach it with oppenness, good will, patience, discpline, and deeply thoughtful effort.

As for music, some quotes to consider:

Everyone knows that time passes at a rate which varies according to the inner dispositions of the subject and to the events that come to affect his consciousness. Expectation, boredom, anguish, pleasure and pain, contemplation—all of these thus come to appear as different categories in the midst of which our life unfolds, and each of these determines a special psychological process, a particular tempo. These variations in psychological time are perceptible only as they are related to the primary sensation—whether conscious or unconscious—of real time, ontological time. . . . What gives the concept of musical time its special stamp is that this concept is born and develops as well outside of the categories of psychological time as it does simultaneously with them.”

- Igor Stravinsky, Poetics of Music (1947)


“The polyrhythm of the following example occurs in the ‘Eroica.’ No ear can analyze the plenitude of contrasts although it can experience it audially. In our enjoyment of music we employ levels of capacity far in advance of our organic development. The musical work of art [since Beethoven] permits us to establish capacities in practice enabling us to intuit subsequent man and his reality. It points once again to the absurdity of the old adage 'nothing is new under the sun’ invoked to discredit the limitless drive of creativity.”


- Hermann Scherchen, On the Essence of Music (1946)


In the “perception of a melody", we distinguish the tone given now,which we term the “perceived”, from those which have gone by, which we say are “not perceived.” On the other hand, we call the whole melody one that is perceived, although only the now-point actually is... Objectively considered, the measure no longer appears as “present” but as “past.” The whole melody, however, appears as present so long as it still sounds, so long as the notes belonging to it, intended in the one nexus of apprehensions, still sound. The melody is past only after the last note has gone.

- Edmund Husserl, On the Phenomenology of the Consciousness of Internal Time (1928)


To [understand the author, the pupil] must fall into step with him by adopting his gestures, his attitudes, his gait, by which I mean learning to read the text aloud with the proper intonation and inflection. The intelligence will later add shades of meaning. But shade and color are nothing without design. Before intellection properly so-called, there is the perception of structure and movement; there is, on the page one reads, punctuation and rhythm.

Now it is in indicating this structure and rhythm, in taking into consideration the temporal relations between the various sentences of the paragraph and the various parts of each sentence, in following uninterruptedly the crescendo of thought and feeling to the point musically indicated as the culminating point that the art of diction consists.
...
There is a certain analogy, be it said in passing, between the art of reading as I have just described it and the intuition I recommend to the philosopher. On the page it has chosen from the great book of the world, intuition seeks to recapture, to get back the movement and rhythm of the composition, to live again creative evolution by being one with it in sympathy. But I have embarked upon too long a digression; it is time to end it.

- Henri Bergson, The Creative Mind (1946)


Musical creations, however, must be generated anew again and again. They flow onward in the surge and swell of their harmonies and melodies, a reflection of the soul, which in its incarnations must always experience itself anew in the onward-flowing stream of time. Just as the human soul is an evolving entity, so its reflection here on earth is a flowing one. The deep effect of music is due to this kinship. Just as the human soul flows downward from its home... so do its shadows; the tones, the harmonies. Hence the intimate effect of music on the soul. Out of music the most primordial kinship speaks to the soul; in the most inwardly deep sense, sounds of home rebound from it. From the soul's primeval home, the spiritual world, the sounds of music are borne across to us and speak comfortingly and encouragingly to us in surging melodies and harmonies.

- Rudolf Steiner, The Inner Nature of Music and the Experience of Tone (1906)


"Don't only practise your art, but force your way into its secrets; art deserves that, for it and knowledge can raise man to the Divine."

- Ludwig von Beethoven

I do like the last two quotes.

[JeffreyW]

Instead hold on tight and take the ride. You really have no choice anyway since you can’t really hide from reality. As Nietzsche knew, music was for playing and dancing, nor analyzing, The irrationality of quantum waves are for surfing, not praying to, sheltering from, or imagining to be different. It leads to a different sort of knowledge, but the one that teaches us who we are and our place in the universe,.

This sounds like fatalism and nihilism. If not, please explain how I got this wrong. If there are reasonable alternatives why would anyone opt for that?

First, could you tell me how you got either of those out of what I wrote?

[JeffreyW]

► Show Spoiler

Well, yes. The same as yours: inability.

I'm rather more inclined to go with futility ... now at 41 pages, and might well go on for 41 more, and no-one here has changed their starting premise one iota. BK would be no exception. Indeed, one would probably be better served by listening to music ...

Why would you think I came here to change your mind? I was invited here to explain my argument. What you do with it is your business and nothing I care about. Unlike Kastrup, I’m not selling anything.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Loverly quotes

As for music, some quotes to consider:

Everyone knows that time passes at a rate which varies according to the inner dispositions of the subject and to the events that come to affect his consciousness. Expectation, boredom, anguish, pleasure and pain, contemplation—all of these thus come to appear as different categories in the midst of which our life unfolds, and each of these determines a special psychological process, a particular tempo. These variations in psychological time are perceptible only as they are related to the primary sensation—whether conscious or unconscious—of real time, ontological time. . . . What gives the concept of musical time its special stamp is that this concept is born and develops as well outside of the categories of psychological time as it does simultaneously with them.”

- Igor Stravinsky, Poetics of Music (1947)

Yes, what about time, time, time, time, time ... All I ever experience is one version of now in comparison to some other version of now with no discontinuity—even if one were to experience discontinuity then that is just another version of now—with no inkling whatsoever of when that now began ...

what time is it? it is by every star
a different time, and each most falsely true;
or so subhuman superminds declare

— not all their times encompass me and you:

when we are never, but forever now
(hosts of eternity; not guests of seem)
believe me, dear, clocks have enough to do

without confusing timelessness and time.

Time cannot children, poets, lovers tell —
Measure imagine, mystery, a kiss
— not though mankind would rather know than feel:

mistrusting utterly that timelessness

whose absence would make your whole life and my
(and infinite our) merely to undie

~ e. e. cummings

[Soul_of_Shu]

Why would you think I came here to change your mind?

Why would I think you came here to change your mind?