Criticism

[Cleric K]

Especially when there is a question whether a specific spiritual practice or group is a sect or is it a healthy tradition. The question is: does what I'm believing, perceiving and experiencing have any relevance to reality or is it mostly a product of my individual mind/imagination/unconsciousness?

"Healthy tradition" means something like "It's OK to go to any dancing classes - tango, salsa, cha-cha-cha - as long as it doesn't interfere with your normal life." This is the general attitude towards spirituality too. It's considered a nice leisure time activity but the moment it has to tell something which concerns 'normal' life, it becomes too much.

What's the point of asking the above question? Of course it is relevant! It's part of the One reality. Is the child's consciousness relevant to reality? Of course it is. Is it the full picture? Anyone can answer for themselves.



The evolution of consciousness is like the above. Our state of being continuously turns within itself from the periphery (future) through the center (now) and away (past). Put aside Steiner and SS. These are principle questions which we can talk about without ever hearing of the latter.

Normally we experience the flow of thinking at the moment it manifests near the pinhole. We say "I think" and that's correct. But this is the freedom of our spirit only at the moment where the wave function is already quite structured. In this sense Sam Harris is quite correct when he says that we're not nearly as free as we imagine. Normally we're not conscious of the peripheral flow which streams toward the center and becomes more and more concrete. Imagine that your perspective is deep towards the center of the torus. Then the imploding periphery is behind your eyes. You don't see what the future carries towards concretization. You see it only when it passes through your vantage point and continues down towards the past.

The question is whether you allow as a possibility that consciousness can rise towards the flow which is normally behind the face of your "I"/eye. I've given many different example how this is achieved. But they'll all remain irrelevant if you assume your vantage point to be already top-level, in other words - there's nothing behind your face - the moment thoughts appear in your consciousness they are your free and original creation. From such a perspective it doesn't make sense to speak of the peripheral flow which gradually approaches your eye from behind.

Now the above will evoke something like "Are you saying that you can see the future?" Yes, and anyone can do it. But this is not the future like guessing the lottery numbers. Before knowing the future of the world we must learn to know our very short-term future. We know this future when we begin to understand our character, temperament, desires, opinions, prejudices. These are all the shaping peripheral forces that gradually concretize the thoughts that we think at the pinhole. We say "my thoughts just pop up into existence". Yes they do, but if we gain consciousness of the peripheral flow we see how our thoughts are being continuously prepared by these forces, before we encounter them in front of our eyes.

This is at crux of the matter. And I repeat that this is a question completely independent of Steiner and SS. It is really the question whether we accept the eye of our intellect as the top authority, or we're open that we're flowing within forces that are behind our face and continually flow through us from the future towards the past.

This opens the existential question: can we move towards the future with our face turned towards it? Or we'll always walk with our back turned to it and accepting as real and originally created only what flies past our eye.

PS: BTW the twisting time-torus can become a powerful meditation in the above sense.

[Cleric K]

"Healthy" tradition is always concerned with experience and knowledge of the Truth and Reality. The difference between healthy traditions and cults is in a way how they do it. But Cleric, the more you exercise twisted logic, the more I'm getting convinced that you are representing a cult.

OK Eugene
As I said, what I wrote above is completely independent of SS and Steiner, independent of any traditions - healthy or cultish. It's actually completely valid topic on its own for a forum like this. Not only it's something that can be thought about but it also has immediate practical dimension and anyone can explore that dimension in meditation. In fact, I'll be happy to hear others' opinions on the torus metaphor - no matter if it is found understandable or not.

The fact that you react in this way, practically answers my question if you're open for the possibility that there's spiritual time-depth behind your eye.

[Eugene I]

The fact that you react in this way, practically answers my question if you're open for the possibility that there's spiritual time-depth behind your eye.

I said it hundred times: I do believe that there is a spiritual time-depth behind my eye. But I do not believe that the phenomena/ideas/imaginations/intuitions of occult character that Steiner and anthroposophies experience have anything to do with that time-depth. I know that our psyche is very good at self-producing wide range of ideas, intuitions, imaginations and all sorts of spiritual experiences that have little to do with the "spiritual time-depth" and are simply its own products. Every experienced spiritual practitioner knows it. The difference is that some people confuse these self-produced phenomena and take them to be the experiences of the "spiritual time-depth" without critically examining them. This is apparently what happened with Steiner when he accepted his intuitive/imaginative perceptions that "blood pumps itself", or "Germanic nation is spiritually superior" or other similar nonsense as the ideas from the united "spiritual time-depth" domain. He deluded himself into believing in his own clairvoyant abilities. And this is also what other anthroposophists keep doing.

[Eugene I]

I'm also not comfortable with participating on a forum that supports propaganda by members of cults but sensors any criticism of them (my few posts were deleted). Cults usually employ some sort of philosophy as their foundation, but you can never understand a cult if you only look at their philosophy, you need to look at the whole picture of their teachings, activities and practices. Even though this is philosophical forum, only limiting the discussions regarding cults to their philosophical views will always give an insufficient and distorted view on the whole phenomenon of a particular cult. I'm leaving the forum at least until it ceases to be a platform of the Anthroposophic cult propaganda.

[Cleric K]

Just for the record, let me state clearly that I have no affiliation with the anthroposophical society. Everything I know of SS I've studied by myself, entirely from RS's books which are freely available online. I even barely know any anthroposophists.

But anyway. Your words above make it clear why you're obliged to see things in this way

I said it hundred times: I do believe that there is a spiritual time-depth behind my eye. But I do not believe that the phenomena/ideas/imaginations/intuitions of occult character that Steiner and anthroposophies experience have anything to do with that time-depth.

The question would be: do you envision any way at all which can elevate man to consciousness of these depths? I think I know the answer because you wrote it few posts ago. You said that the veil is there for a reason. No one disputes that. The question is do you see it as part of evolution that the veil should be torn down? That is, this world and the yonder world be bridged in the individual's consciousness?

If your answer is no, then OK. You see the Earth as opaque sandbox which has never been intended to be bridged in consciousness. This is a valid position, although just as the Kantian thing-in-itself, it remains a matter of belief. Because you can't trust any one tradition, since all of them are created from the Earthly side. As such, all of them are subject to your own criticism. It's all a matter of belief of choice. Let me just say that the term 'non-dualism' stays little out of place in such a paradigm.

If the answer is no, ignore what's below but if it is yes, then the next question would be: how do you imagine that this process would happen? In other words, what do you expect to happen? Clearly you don't have faith that we, as we are in our age are capable of crossing the threshold, because we're seeing only our own fantasies. This in itself means that if it is not up to us, then something external should happen. Second Coming, the next Flood, First Contact, WW3... I don't know. What is it that you're personally waiting for? If a spiritual teacher appears and speaks about higher cognition which crosses the veil, what do you think would distinguish him/her from all those which you see as susceptible to the imaginative fantasies? What would make the teaching immune to be called a cult by the ill-wishers? And realistically, from what character do you imagine would be the needed inner change which will allow you to pass through the band of illusions without falling victim? What do you imagine should be different in you such that you can penetrate the spirit time-depth without being afraid that all you perceive is nothing but fantasies?

These are not trick-questions. I don't have hidden agenda. This is not a cult questionnaire. In fact, these are the most important questions that each one of us should be asking him/herself. What could be more important today than the Truth? And what is that which stands on the way of Truth? Anyone who meditates on the above questions should be able to find out what stands in his or her individual way to Truth. Knowing what stands on the way is half the victory. If we understand the obstacle, this automatically means we know the direction of the path.

[AshvinP]

I'm also not comfortable with participating on a forum that supports propaganda by members of cults but sensors any criticism of them (my few posts were deleted). Cults usually employ some sort of philosophy as their foundation, but you can never understand a cult if you only look at their philosophy, you need to look at the whole picture of their teachings, activities and practices. Even though this is philosophical forum, only limiting the discussions regarding cults to their philosophical views will always give an insufficient and distorted view on the whole phenomenon of a particular cult. I'm leaving the forum at least until it ceases to be a platform of the Anthroposophic cult propaganda.

For the record, my response to your deleted post was also deleted, so I suspect it had more to do with the tone of the comments and the direction in which they were trending. I see no possible way comments which simply call another person's philosophy or spiritual tradition a "cult" without tying it back to precise philosophical arguments whatsoever, especially when the other person (Cleric) is never relying on specific personalities or teachings apart from his own experience to explicate his position, could ever be relevant in a philosophy forum.

[Eugene I]

The question would be: do you envision any way at all which can elevate man to consciousness of these depths? I think I know the answer because you wrote it few posts ago. You said that the veil is there for a reason. No one disputes that. The question is do you see it as part of evolution that the veil should be torn down? That is, this world and the yonder world be bridged in the individual's consciousness?

If your answer is no, then OK. You see the Earth as opaque sandbox which has never been intended to be bridged in consciousness. This is a valid position, although just as the Kantian thing-in-itself, it remains a matter of belief. Because you can't trust any one tradition, since all of them are created from the Earthly side. As such, all of them are subject to your own criticism. It's all a matter of belief of choice. Let me just say that the term 'non-dualism' stays little out of place in such a paradigm.

If the answer is no, ignore what's below but if it is yes, then the next question would be: how do you imagine that this process would happen? In other words, what do you expect to happen? Clearly you don't have faith that we, as we are in our age are capable of crossing the threshold, because we're seeing only our own fantasies. This in itself means that if it is not up to us, then something external should happen. Second Coming, the next Flood, First Contact, WW3... I don't know. What is it that you're personally waiting for? If a spiritual teacher appears and speaks about higher cognition which crosses the veil, what do you think would distinguish him/her from all those which you see as susceptible to the imaginative fantasies? What would make the teaching immune to be called a cult by the ill-wishers? And realistically, from what character do you imagine would be the needed inner change which will allow you to pass through the band of illusions without falling victim? What do you imagine should be different in you such that you can penetrate the spirit time-depth without being afraid that all you perceive is nothing but fantasies?

These are not trick-questions. I don't have hidden agenda. This is not a cult questionnaire. In fact, these are the most important questions that each one of us should be asking him/herself. What could be more important today than the Truth? And what is that which stands on the way of Truth? Anyone who meditates on the above questions should be able to find out what stands in his or her individual way to Truth. Knowing what stands on the way is half the victory. If we understand the obstacle, this automatically means we know the direction of the path.

You are asking key questions and I don't pretend to know the answers. I can only tell you my current views on it. The "veil" is set up and is controlled by the beings who created this material universe. The veil is "not a bug, it's a feature", it is here for a reason. There is not a single reason, but multiple ones. Our Earthly life is a multi-dimensional and multi-purpose endeavor. We are learning certain experiences of key importance here that we can never learn in the noncorporeal realms, and could never learn in the corporeal form if the veil would be not present. This is why we are not supposed to "brutally" break through the veil in our human form, but can only see through it intuitively, mystically and esthetically. There have been many attempts in many esoteric groups and traditions over the history to break through the veil, but they would always end up being deluded by the products of their own psyche and imagination, just like what happened with Steiner and his followers. We signed up for this veiled existence when we agreed to incarnate (of course we forget it, which is also part of the plan). Don't worry, we will be back with more open access to the universal knowledge after we quit our corporeal life, but we will also bring back the unique experiences of this corporeal life that will enrich our spiritual maturity in deep ways.

I find the anthroposophic views rather narrow and limited, just like any other human-made worldview, philosophy or religion. Moreover, their sectarian rejection of any other possibilities not aligned with their rigid set of beliefs makes their views even narrower. The reality is much more multi-dimensional and rich compared to the "linear" way anthroposophy sees it. The collective "curvatures of meanings" and larger flows do exist, but beings do not travel entirely along pre-defined collective "curvatures of meanings", but rather expand into the unlimited universe along a huge variety of multi-dimensional paths and degrees of freedom by exercising their fundamental spiritual freedom. However, like many other philosophies and spiritual traditions, anthroposophists do have their unique insights into certain facets of the Reality at Large. The difference between a open and living knowledge-experience and a sectarian one is openness-vs-closeness. Sectarian approach is based on a belief that it is only their view that presents the ultimate Truth in its completeness, and any other view that is not in full compliance with their view is undoubtedly wrong. But hey, may be that is exactly the experience of being a sectarian believer that these people need to learn in this corporeal life, who knows May be it is an important learning experience to be deluded, so that we can later understand how the delusion works and why/how we get into these states. This is also a lesson in humility.

But it's good that you are now asking questions instead of being confident that you already know all the answers (if that is really what you are doing).

[JustinG]

"Healthy" tradition is always concerned with experience and knowledge of the Truth and Reality. The difference between healthy traditions and cults is in a way how they do it. But Cleric, the more you exercise twisted logic, the more I'm getting convinced that you are representing a cult.

OK Eugene
As I said, what I wrote above is completely independent of SS and Steiner, independent of any traditions - healthy or cultish. It's actually completely valid topic on its own for a forum like this. Not only it's something that can be thought about but it also has immediate practical dimension and anyone can explore that dimension in meditation. In fact, I'll be happy to hear others' opinions on the torus metaphor - no matter if it is found understandable or not.

The fact that you react in this way, practically answers my question if you're open for the possibility that there's spiritual time-depth behind your eye.

Here's the way I make sense of issues like this:

Expeditions into the 'supersensible' involve dissociation from one's physiological body and can be extremely threatening to one's sense of self. To avoid a psychotic break it is imperative that a new belief structure is available to replace the one that has been shattered. Once this new belief structure has been adopted, it provides a new and valid way of making sense of things. However, the new belief structure, like the old one before it was shattered, can be held very firmly (hence, the difficulties in extricating people from cults, no matter what empirical evidence is provided to them).

This is not meant to imply that all religions or spiritual systems are cults - it could just as easily be argued that physicalism is a cult. Nevertheless, it is important to bear in mind that spiritual systems are always constructed from a particular situatedness and place in the world. Hence, in my view a good way to assess a religion or spiritual system is through the degree of tolerance and respect it has for other belief systems, and the the extent to which it cultivates humility.

To illustrate this point, readers might like to try the following spiritual exercise:

1. Imagine a society in which there are only two classes, a priestly class and a slave class. Members of the priestly class spend all their time, apart from time spent meeting physiological needs, on meditation, spiritual exercises and discussion of higher worlds. Members of the slave class spent all their time meeting the needs of members of the priestly class, apart from time spent meeting their own physiological needs and a half hour of meditation per day which they are permitted. The slave class also interpret the arduous labour they perform day in and day out as a form of spiritual practice.


2. Reflect on the following words of Jesus (Luke 4:18):


The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,

because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;

he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,

to preach deliverance to the captives,

and recovering of sight to the blind,

to set at liberty them that are bruised,



3. Ask yourself the question - is a member of the priestly class likely to be more or less spiritually advanced than a member of the slave class?

[AshvinP]

"Healthy" tradition is always concerned with experience and knowledge of the Truth and Reality. The difference between healthy traditions and cults is in a way how they do it. But Cleric, the more you exercise twisted logic, the more I'm getting convinced that you are representing a cult.

OK Eugene
As I said, what I wrote above is completely independent of SS and Steiner, independent of any traditions - healthy or cultish. It's actually completely valid topic on its own for a forum like this. Not only it's something that can be thought about but it also has immediate practical dimension and anyone can explore that dimension in meditation. In fact, I'll be happy to hear others' opinions on the torus metaphor - no matter if it is found understandable or not.

The fact that you react in this way, practically answers my question if you're open for the possibility that there's spiritual time-depth behind your eye.

Here's the way I make sense of issues like this:

Expeditions into the 'supersensible' involve dissociation from one's physiological body and can be extremely threatening to one's sense of self. To avoid a psychotic break it is imperative that a new belief structure is available to replace the one that has been shattered. Once this new belief structure has been adopted, it provides a new and valid way of making sense of things. However, the new belief structure, like the old one before it was shattered, can be held very firmly (hence, the difficulties in extricating people from cults, no matter what empirical evidence is provided to them).

Justin,

Can you elaborate on your spiritual 'expeditions', i.e. how they were carried out and what precisely was experienced when you crossed the threshold over into supersensible realms? Thanks.

[JustinG]

No. I'd rather not. But I did not go down the easy path.