Can Idealism be without thought?

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SanteriSatama
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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?

Post by SanteriSatama »

Cleric K wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:49 pm Expansion is one direction. That's how the unique claims its property. As the "event horizon" expands, everything that falls inside could be cast into thoughts. That's how we recognize the trauma, the new relations, etc. This is a necessary process.

Yet we cannot use expansion as means to know the reality of the Creative Being. On first thought it may seem logical that our ego can inflate indefinitely and swallow the whole Cosmos in itself. But when our event horizon meets another human being, what do we do? Do we swallow them within ourselves as a thought or we become a thought within them?

So there's also contraction. We need to find the place of that too. We contract into the focus point of our spiritual activity (thought for example). It is through that pinhole that we pass and expand again but on the "other side". Our ego becomes turned "inside-out". We let go of our ego, let go of everything we are in our everyday life and remain only with our bare thought. Then, on the other side, we find our ego again, although in a quite different form, spread before us. And we are already something else.

So as everything in the Living Cosmos we have rhythms - expansion and contraction.
Yes, expansion and contraction is what we mean by breathing aka spirit. The metta I first learned is heart breathing, expanding heart to all you attend and the blurred hole, and contracting to single point. Self Breathing Nature is how I now translate into English our animistic culture's tripartite view of "soul". I like the translation because it's vague in regards to which is subject and which is object, if the expression even includes such.

What goes around comes around. A geometric meditation that was nice to find and attend was imagining a sphere, dropping a stone on a pole, so that wave fronts start to travel along the sphere surface until they gather and flow in at the opposite pole. It can be often much more difficult to learn to accept to receive love than only to send love.

Bare feel works for me better than bare thought. My thought is very much in love with thinking better, as well as thinking can learn to think. We all have different inclinations and talents and unique natural flows, trying to force a shoe where it doesn't fit well is not tempting. Also cultures are different, Western education attends the head, students sit and listen while the teacher pours knowledge in their head, and many seem barely aware of bodily sensations, unless they go over the pain threshold. A good dose of spiritual anarchy is helpful in that respect, to walk the tight rope of developing healthy and grounded self-confidence.

Feel-wise, attending to feel a surface - e.g. skin - from both sides has been a fascinating discovery. Fingers crossed Christian prayer style or palms joined Namaste style are obvious ways to attend feeling the surface created by touch from both sides, as well as the rich texture of touch itself. How to relate to other sentient beings in the expansion and contraction breathing? Giving permission for all to touch and feel you in the bare feel is very intimate and sensual choice, compared to giving all permission to hear your thoughts. Only permission of course, no obligation! :D

It is very pleasant to learn and teach together in the spirit of free exchange, sharing and trying out various meditations. "Teaching" being just a function of being students together and for each other. <3
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David_Sundaram
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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?

Post by David_Sundaram »

Cleric K wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:53 pm
David_Sundaram wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:49 pm if one believes that one's 'self' is a living extension/expression of All-Creating/Ever-Flowing Brahman, one's thinking and choice/decision-based actions will be calm/secure/easy-flowing/seemingly-happening-without-personal-'effort'/at-'home'-among-others/etc.
I would like to ask you something else about your view.
I very much appreciate (enjoy/value/feel 'kinship' as when being looked at by and looking back into my fav dog's eyes) the natural Intelligence apparent in your relationally curious attention (not just to 'me' and what 'I' say) , C. 💌

Cleric K wrote:I presume you were not born with the above understanding/belief. Most certainly you had a life path that led you up to that point. You can now look back upon your own I/ego/self in the past and discern under what beliefs was your former thinking activity being shaped. In certain sense, your current self was already there but was veiled through the layers of confusion.
Correct, except for the 'confusion' part. As far as I am aware, I have always, at the deepest level, thought and felt that others' were 'like 'me' (just in different 'form'). Any 'consternation' I experienced was in relation to figuring out (and accepting and forgiving as necessary) how and why the heck said others as well as, when and as 'I' puzzle-solvingly 'grew' to see 'through' my own limited-vision based, 'self'-righteous bullshit, 'I' myself didn't naturally act/re-act as one might expect of 'true' we-are-part-of-the-same-family kin.

Cleric K wrote:What I've observed in different instances is that at this point of enlightenment, the identification with the Cosmic I-AM, very often any further unveiling process ceases. For example, there's a great change of self-conception if we have lived in a materialistic belief and now we found ourselves as a purely spiritual being grounded in reality itself, with no further need to look elsewhere for explanation of itself. Often, when one reaches this point it is assumed that the true grounds of existence are revealed and as far as the ego self-conception itself, there's nothing more to be unveiled. Of course, many other things continue to be unveiled - new knowledge, suppressed feelings and so on but as far the ego's understanding of itself - it has reached the zenith. After all, what else could it identify with, once it has already identified with the Source of all-there-is?
My first inclination was to embrace this summary. Except something struck me as being 'missing' from the 'zenith' idea. Thought it may look and feel like that, on the basis of my treatise-presented theory at least, I would wager that in practice the ego-('i'dentity)-expansion waking-'up'-from-one-'dream'-into-a-'higher'-one process never ends. From my treatise: "Especially when and as you hear others reinforcingly describing ‘enlightenment’ experiences similar to yours in ‘glowing’ terms, be sure to always remind yourself of the fact that every soul’s ‘journey’ is unique and that said evolutionary journey never ends. Infinity extends in every direction. The projection that there is some kind of ‘ultimate’, or ‘greatest’ possible, realization beyond which there is nothing more or different to realize is delusional!"

Cleric K wrote:Nevertheless, as we discussed in my previous post, we are still Brahman in His limited form, while His Cosmic Creative process is unconscious. The ego knows that it is an emanation of all-there-is but it is nevertheless limited.
My logic 'dictates' that only part of 'His' process can be fully 'conscious' on the part of any of 'His' parts. 😀 But along the lines of "Knock ,and it shall be opened to you," I believe 'consciousness' is 'mobile' and so may be deployed by a deployer to 'know' more about whatever it is said deployer wishes to 'know' more about.

Cleric K wrote:My question is, what in your view, is the relation of the limited ego to the Cosmic Ego. I'm not speaking simply of prayer.

:?: First, do you conceive as there's a process that gradually unveils additional sheaths that progressively move us through the gradient between the limited Microcosmic ego and the Macrocosmic. In other words, the Macrocosmic unconscious becomes conscious and thus the ego is now becoming a mixture between Micro- and Macrocosmic Ego.
:?: If yes, do you consider this as a kind of evolution.
I think (hope?) what I have already said in this response satisfactorily 'answers' these questions.I would just add that IMO 'seeing' is just 'seeing'. 'Unveiling' is a false ''narrative', IMO.

(response continued)
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David_Sundaram
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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?

Post by David_Sundaram »

Response continued:
Cleric K wrote::?: And finally, how do you resolve the problem with the "one and the many". If the Macrocosmic Ego is one, how do we imagine the process of becoming many - from first person experience. And the reverse process, which is probably even more interesting, how and when separate egos merge to become a higher ego unit (if we imagine that there's a pyramid like hierarchy of egos that break down fractally the one to many).

I ask this because in what I've read in your treatise, and this is similar also in many New Age themed materials, the focus is always on the souls. A lot is spoken about the path of the souls, dimensions, worlds, post-incarnational careers etc. But for me this seems a lot like taking the earthly ego and copy-pasting it all over the cosmos in different environments, different body/no-body circumstances and so on. It's usually said that the souls are "sparks of the Source" but I don't know if it is meant that the One fragments in a single step to the level of the soul-like ego, or there's a hierarchy of ego-states (as in many esoteric traditions).
There are many theories regarding this. I myself am mainly interested in and focused on 'soul' development in the context of the Spirit's choice to 'incarnate' in a matter-energy composed 'world' and the possibility of our (humans) 'graduating' as a 'soul' into 'angel'-like presence and creative function.

The following excerpt from Ch 32 (partly titled THE SEVEN OCTAVES OF VIBRATION) of Eliabaeth Haich's book, Initiation (there a lot more dealing with the topic there) addresses some of the issues you raise, I think:

"Throughout the universe, countless varieties of vibrations are at work,
ranging from the shortest to the longest wave length. Every form of creation,
beginning with the celestial bodies and ranging all the way down to the tiniest
monocellular creature—all the myriad manifestations of creation are the
effects of various forms of these rays. We live in these various rays whether we
know it or not; even more, these forms of energy have built and formed us
human beings and are constantly at work in our body, our mind, and our
entire being. The whole universe consists of these various vibrations. The
source of these creative vibrations we call God.

'God himself stands above all manifestations of life and rests in himself in
absolute equilibrium without time and without space. But he is constantly
radiating himself out into material forms in order to give these forms life. As
God is omnipresent and fills the entire universe, everything that is in the
universe is penetrated and filled by God. Nothing can exist without being in
God and without God's penetrating it, as God is everywhere present and
nothing can displace or dislodge him from his own presence. Consequently,
every point offers a possibility that God may manifest himself through it, and
everything that exists in our perceptible world carries this point as its own
centre within itself. From this point, there began its first manifestation, its
creation, its fall from equilibrium.

'This aspect of God who creates the material world and gives it life by
penetrating it, that is, the actual life hi us and in all creatures, we call the
"higher self". Expressions like "God", "creator", "universal self", "higher self"
or the "creative principle" all mean one and the same divinity in its various
aspects.

'The energies radiating from the centre are still highly spiritual in the
centre and of the highest frequencies. But the farther out they radiate from
the centre, the more material they become ... until these radiating energies are
gradually changed into matter. In this way the radiating power limits itself, and at the
edge of manifestation farthest removed from the centre it becomes a hard,
material rind or crust. For this reason, the picture—the "name"—of God who
manifests himself in the visible world is a circle, an inner circle of higher
powers surrounded by a hard, material rind or crust.

'Expressed in letters, the symbol is OM.

'All creatures, from the central suns down to monocellular beings, are built
according to this principle. Look at a cross-section of our earth. In the centre,
the mighty forces are still in the evolutionary stage of the fire circle. Next
come the gaseous regions, then those of the molten or liquid circles, and the
outer-form is the rind of hard matter. But I want to tell you too that another
opposing force—centripetal force—is also active at the same time, drawing all
material manifestations inward towards itself. And if hard matter were not
sufficiently resistant, all manifestations of life would be drawn into their own
centres and disappear. Even our earth, with all the forms of life upon it, would
suffer this fate. The resistance of matter prevents this from happening, and
only for this reason is it possible at all for creation to exist and life to have
come forth here on this hard, material crust of the earth. Don't forget the
resistance of matter, because we shall talk about it again.

'Here is another example to illustrate the inner structure of material forms:
a section through the spinal column of any vertebrate shows the same
construction, the extremely fine substance of the marrow of the back bone
carrying the creative power of life, developed and protected by the hard crust
of bone. Whatever bone you cut—be it skull, vertebra or leg bone—you will
find the same cross section.

'If you cut the stem of a plant, you will come upon the same pattern. Have
you ever looked at trees after they have been felled? The inner structure of the
tree is exactly the same: radiating from the centre are circles of vital energy,
fed by the finer matter of the tree's innermost substance. The annual rings
reflect the yearly radiation of life in the tree that takes place very spring,
surrounded and protected by the outer ring of hard bark.

'Growth always starts from the centre and radiates outward. The
innermost source of all powers and manifestations is God.


'This aspect of God, who is clothed in matter and makes living beings out of
created forms and which we call the higher self (Logos) is what draws us back
into our own centre, since we have fallen from the divine unity, from the state
of paradise. It is the heavenly bridegroom for whom the human soul longs.
One should never mistake this divine self for the personal "I" which hi itself
has no true existence and is merely an imaginary being.

'The vital source behind every form of manifestation, be it a sun, planet,
human being, animal, plant life or inorganic matter is one and the same God,
the same divine self.

'Although the same God is everywhere present in every creature, he is
manifest in countless different variations, because God reveals himself on
every single level on which manifestation is possible and the created forms
manifested on these various levels reveal only as much of God as each form
can consciously experience and bear of the divine creative force,
corresponding to its own level. To consciously experience force means being
this force and simultaneously radiating it hi all directions, including into one's
own body. For this reason, the body too must have adequate power of
resistance; otherwise the radiations of the self would burn and destroy it.
'Hence the bodies of the various manifestations of life are not made hi the
same way. On the contrary the matter composing them is of different degrees
of resistance, corresponding hi each case to the level of consciousness of the
manifestation of life concerned. You know that the chemical composition of
matter determines which vibrations a body can support. When a body is
subjected to a radiation in excess of its resistance, this harms its entire nerve
system, and can lead to a nervous breakdown and even to mental
derangement. When the number of vibrations of this force exceeds the scope
of an octave the force even becomes lethal. This is why, when we want to
initiate a person into a higher degree of divine power, we must first prepare
his body, subjecting it among other things to a chemical process, in order that
the difference will not be more than one octave at the most. Otherwise he dies.
'In the material world there are four levels of manifestation which we call
matter, vegetable life, animal life, and human life, depending on the outward
appearance and the degree of consciousness attained. Compared with the
human being, we can hardly speak at all of the "consciousness" of matter, and
yet a crystal may serve to show that matter too has a sort of consciousness.
Each level of manifestation of life is characterized by its own degree of
consciousness which is one octave removed from the next. Only man has the
power to manifest several degrees of consciousness, all the way up to the
divine level. If We keep in mind the intervals—octaves—by which we classify
levels of evolution, we find that man, as a category, occupies four steps of the
great ladder of evolution reaching from earth up to heaven; furthermore we
see that each step corresponds to one octave on the scale of vibrations. Man
knows about these four steps or degrees and has given them names: man
characterized by his intellect; genius, characterized by intuition; prophet,
characterized by his wisdom and universal love; and the last and highest
degree, that of the God man, characterized by his omniscience and
omnipotence.

'Thus, in the material world, we find four manifestations which together
reveal seven octaves of vibration.

'Every creature emits the vibrations of which it is made, that is, those which
it consciously supports. Matter, the very lowest degree of consciousness,
manifests itself only through contraction, cooling off, and hardening.
'The plant manifests itself on two levels; the material level and the level of
force—vegetative force—that gives life to it. The plant manifests material
vibrations unconsciously; it carries its body like a dress, but its level of
consciousness is the vegetative level of force giving life to matter. Force
manifested on this level has three distinctive aspects by which it can be
recognized wherever it appears: the search for food, the taking in of food, and
the assimilation or digestion of food.

'The animal manifests three forces, the material, the vegetative and animal.
It has a body, it seeks out its food, eats and digests and is conscious on the
animal level: it has emotions, instincts, urges, feelings, sympathy, antipathy
and desires. The animal is conscious in the third developmental stage, only
one degree lower than man.

'The average man stands one octave of vibrations higher: he is conscious
on the mental level. He has intellect and the ability to think. But at the same
time he manifests the three other levels. On the material, he has a body; on
the vegetative, he seeks out his food, eats it and digests it; on the animal, he
has emotions, drives, sympathy, antipathy and desires. But his most
outstanding characteristic is his intellect. Man thinks consciously.
With the next degree of development, man makes a great jump: he lifts his
consciousness out of the world of effects into the plane of causes. He draws on
the divine source of the causal plan and manifests this force that appears in
his consciousness as intuition. With the help of his intellect and spiritual
power* he is able to express his experiences on a higher plane in words and
transmit them to his fellow men. He can also prove the existence of his
intuition in other arts: without dimensions, in music, as a composer; in two
dimensions with lines and colours, as a painter; in three dimensional forms as
a sculptor or as a dancer. People call the creative person a genius. He
manifests the five octaves of vibration of the material, vegetative animal,
mental and causal forces.

'The degree of consciousness of the next higher octave of vibrations, in the
language of human beings, is called that of a prophet. The prophet manifests
all the forces that work on the previously mentioned planes of consciousness,
but he is also conscious on the next higher level too, the plane of divine
wisdom and universal love. We must be careful never to confuse this universal
love, which is manifested on the sixth plane and is a completely spiritual
power, with the "love" of the third, animal plane which is the manifestation of
animal instincts. This latter "love" is a vibration operating three levels lower
at the source of which is the urge to propagate the species. Such "love" is
desire for possession and always only seeks the body. It forces a person to
come close to the loved one, and embrace, kiss, and hug him or her—in a
word—to possess.

'Whoever is subject to this kind of love is still living in his consciousness in
the condition of dividedness and separation and seeks a complementary
physical partner in order to find satisfaction. This love always seeks to take, to
have something, to possess. Love in the sixth plane of manifestation, the love
of the prophet, does not come from a condition of division, but from the
primordial condition of divine unity I Hence, this love is universal, always
giving, never taking, needs no supplement, no physical manifestation, but
always radiates from the consciousness of divine all-unity. People who are
conscious on this plane do not want to possess anybody; they feel themselves
one with the infinite all.

'The seventh and most perfect manifestation of God is the completely
conscious man: the God-man. All other forms of revelation manifest only
transformed vibrations, only part of God. A God-man is a person who
manifests God— his own divine self—completely and perfectly through a
perfect consciousness; one who experiences and radiates the divine creative
forces in their primordial untransformed vibrations and frequencies. He is
supremely conscious; no part of him is unconscious.

'Only man has the ability to master and to radiate all seven octaves of
vibration, as the nervous centres corresponding to the seven octaves of
transformed and untransformed creative power exist in his nervous system.
On the other hand, he is only able to radiate vibrations on the levels on which
he has become conscious, because until he becomes conscious on a given
level, the corresponding nerve centres remain in a latent condition. Thus the
average human being will radiate vibrations up to the fourth plane, the genius
up to the fifth, the prophet up to the sixth, and only the God-man is able
consciously to radiate all seven octaves and to radiate the divine creative
power, according to his own will, in its untransformed form or to transform it,
to change it, and transmit it in lower (transformed) frequencies.
"

Please note: Based on my readings, I do not think one has to reach the level of being become what Ptahotep calls a 'God-man' to embark an on 'angelic' post-incarnational career/occupation.
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Cleric K
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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?

Post by Cleric K »

Thank you David, for your answers and citations!
This was what I wanted to know at this time :)
If anything else pops out I'll ask.
RehabDoc
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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?

Post by RehabDoc »

Thought is meta-consciousness. It is inherently reflective. It is an important way that we know which can be communicated in conversation, dialogically. And in scientific papers. And it is inherently fragmentational Thought as a fragmenting system is inescapable. You cannot obtain non dualism through the sacrifice of meta-consciousness and direct return to Oneness from the inevitable dualism that thought entails.
So what to do? Remain stuck in Nominalism? In Materialism? In 'necessary' dualism?
The answer is 'triadicity', through Peircean 'Thirdness', through Mediation. It is the return to One from Two by way of Three. And what, in essence, is 'Thirdness'? For Peirce, in the context of his evolutionary scientific process metaphysics, it is Agapism, what he called 'Evolutionary Love'. See: https://scrcexhibits.omeka.net/exhibits ... nary-love-
See also Jeff Carreira's comment on his blog... https://philosophyisnotaluxury.com/2016 ... ry-love-2/
And also see Adam Crabtree's book: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... s_of_Greed
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ev ... QBAJ?hl=en
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Lou Gold
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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?

Post by Lou Gold »

It is the return to One from Two by way of Three.
I like these words because they give a three-legged stool upon which one can stand.

I grok art much more than philosophy and recall the works of Leonard Shlain who argued that art generally reflects and even precedes scientific and socio-political change. Coincidentally, I was just writing, in another context, about my favorite new popular musician. I was going to post it in the forum's art section but it seems to make sense to post it here.

My musical discovery of 2020 was the spectacular young Brit Jacob Collier who was just posting homemade youtubes from his childhood room in London when he was discovered by the great Quincy Jones and propelled onto a world stage. He has already won several Grammys and may add more this year because his pandemic year production "Djesse 3" has been nominated for album of the year. Jacob likes to tell a story of when he was a 12 year old performer in a Benjamin Britten opera. In a final rehearsal the director had them sit and sing the opera acapella while doing an interesting meditation where every verb was thought of as its opposite -- for example 'running' became 'sitting', etc. The exercise blew his mind because reversing the verb produced a new sound, a richer harmony and this triggered him eventually into creating spectacular harmonies as in his version of "Moon River" or a new mixes such as Classical-Bossa Nova in "Lua" or with a full orchestra "In the Real Early Morning" or co-created spontaneously with his audience in "With The Love in My Heart" or the brilliantly produced musically and visually "All Night Long". The essence of all of this, in my view, is that in our world, now riven with opposing extremes of culture and style, the challenge is no longer to defeat the other (for example, by one vote in the U.S. Senate) but to find transcending ways of including opposites and differences into new harmonies. Jacob Collier's musicianship is way ahead of the socio-political curve and this seems to be the difference making the difference, a difference which makes his music so attractive and joyful to me.

In the hip-hop style now favored among the youth JC says "Sanctify don't Justify" in his recent release "Count the People." I say "Shine don't Whine" but the essential meaning is to get on with the work of transcending. Accept the difference and create a new harmony. In a world of much suffering, this is often called 'Loving Kindness' or 'Forgiveness'.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
SanteriSatama
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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?

Post by SanteriSatama »

Lou Gold wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:18 pm
It is the return to One from Two by way of Three.
three
Hero's Journey: separation, initiation, return.

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Lou Gold
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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?

Post by Lou Gold »

SanteriSatama wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:32 pm
Lou Gold wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:18 pm
It is the return to One from Two by way of Three.
three
Hero's Journey: separation, initiation, return.

GOOD MOVIE. I loved it.

We've moved (and are moving) from separation into initiation, which is a time of great challenge and fear where the initiate is usually assisted/supported by a wise elder who had made the passage earlier on. In a sense, the old hero passes the baton to the new hero. However, there does seem to be a new wrinkle. The Hero image is personalized and individualistic. It gives an endless chain of heros and wise sages supporting them with perennial wisdom while things get evermore challenging at the collective (species) level. Thus the current Dalai Lama speculates that there might not be another and Thich Nhat Hanh suggested that the emergent Buddha will be a community, which was (is) the take of tribal people everywhere -- "I am because we are." The challenge becomes how to go from local to global. This creates a new initiatory dynamic of going from me to we and at ever expanding scale. Surely, not simple but meanwhile I like hearing JC sing "SANCTIFY don't JUSTIFY."
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Federica
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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?

Post by Federica »

I am resurfacing from within this older thread, for the purpose of continuing the discussion on the given of experience. In this post, I have simply extracted the important pieces from the above conversation, so they’re in sequence in one place. I have found this sequence very enlightening to approach the question of the given. Unfortunately, I can't make myself agree with everything for now. But before commenting and asking, I thought I would give myself a little extra time for reflection, and a chance to anyone interested, to go through the key points of the question.

Cleric wrote:As others have already pointed out, as long as philosophy (idealism included) is considered an intellectual discipline, obviously it is expressed in thoughts.
The interesting question is whether intellectual thought is the only possible form of cognition?
It is clear that we can’t go beyond thought through thought. We can’t think our way out into a form of cognition that is different from thought. The result of any logical train of thought is still a thought.
This is the cause of the strong dichotomy between dual and non-dual, self and no-self, thought and no-thought, time and no-time, etc. Our sense of self is most immediately experienced within the thinking process. It is within our thoughts that we experience, for lack of better words, some kind of “self-reflective quality”. There’s something objectively different in the perception of a thought, compared to other perceptions. For example, when I perceive a word, I can ask “Why I'm perceiving this? Where it comes from?" But if I perceive the same word as a thought-perception, the answer to these questions is contained within the thought-experience. The thought is an immediate reflection of the ideal content, the meaning of our experience. We do not perceive the thought as an external sensory perception and then go on to interpret its meaning - instead, the thought is a projection (arguably, only partial) of the idea/meaning that we already experience. But most importantly, we feel the unmistakable quality of self-reflectivity within the thought process. In thought-perceptions cause and effect, so to speak, are one.


In this way we see that when we speak of self or "I", this is not something that we decide to construct arbitrarily. We can only say "I" because of the self-reflective quality within thoughts. Our intellectual speculations about what that "I" is, are something that we really add only consequently. But the self-reflective quality of the thinking process is not something that we add through our own actions. It is there in the given. We can't separate that quality from the experience of the thinking process.


Now the strong dichotomy mentioned above proceeds from the fact that on one side we have the self-reflective thinking process and on the other we envision some kind of awareness or consciousness that can be experienced even in the absence of thoughts and a self. Clearly, it is possible to attain to a meditative state where thinking ceases. We detach from the immediate thought forming process and this naturally distances us from the self-reflective quality within that process. When there's no active thought process, there is also no self-perception as conveyed through that process. This seems to support the idea that the self only exists as long as the self-reflective quality of thinking is present.


But we should be aware that, paradoxically as it may sound, we are actively pursuing this experience. Anyone who has personal experience in these things and is honest about them, would acknowledge that we actively repel any form of spiritual activity that might have the self-reflecting quality. This is something that is quite underestimated in our time. It is widely assumed that the experience of no-thought reveals the ultimate ground of existence. But it is rarely taken into account that the experience results from a method of meditation that is being actively sought after. We repel any form of spiritual activity because we believe that by doing so we attain to the grounds of existence.


Yet anyone who has dared to break the dogma of no-thought, no-self, can confirm that within a higher state it is in fact possible to have experiences of self-reflecting quality that are not thought themselves but precede thoughts. A common metaphor for this kind of experiences is to picture regular thoughts as standing wave forms within a deeper stratum of spiritual activity. Many meditators would readily agree with such a metaphor but will fiercely oppose the idea that there's a kind of spiritual activity of a self-reflective quality within the deeper stratum. But this opposition is not based on some kind of certain experience that shows beyond any doubt that it's impossible for such a kind of spiritual activity to exist within deeper reality.


The problem here lies not in what the experiences tell out of themselves but in what we seek within the experiences through our preconceived ideas. There's no doubt that it is possible to experience a tranquil state detached from the thought-forming process and thus from the self that this process entails. But this experience itself does not tell us anything of whether there could be other states within which we can experience self-reflective spiritual activity. The only way to confirm the reality of such a state would be to experience it. But this is exactly what mystics will never do because it goes against their beliefs.


A very simple (probably insultingly simple) example could be if we have never moved our arm and hold on to the "no-arm-movement" paradigm. Someone tells us "Hey, it is actually possible to move your arm". We reply "Negative. I have never experienced arm movement so there's no such a thing." Furthermore, if the no-arm-movement paradigm is presented in such a way that it is considered the ultimate reality, then we'll actively suppress any hints of movement because we believe that any movement leads us into the illusionary world of "arm-movement". We can very clearly see the fallacy here. There are experiences that can only become confirmed reality if we actively pursue them.


And this is the peculiar situation of humanity in our age. We are on a threshold where thought-only cognition becomes lost in the abstractness of isolated thoughts that build upon themselves. On the other hand, the impossibility to transcend thinking through thinking throws many in the completely opposite extremum, and consider thoughts worthless along with the self-reflective quality they entail.


But couldn't it be that thinking activity is only a more limited form of a higher form of spiritual activity of self-reflective quality?

Cleric wrote:Let's unlearn as much as possible. Let's unlearn so far that we are like naked beings into existence. No prior knowledge of anything. Well, let's keep at least language and our ability to discern and describe the contents of experience, otherwise we can't go on with this discussion.


We now find ourselves in a pristine existence or rather - experience is being experienced (we don't know we are "we" yet). How can the totality of this experience be described? Certainly not by saying that we are having a subjective experience of an objective world. We have unlearned ideas like outer world, inner world, self, God, consciousness, awareness, void, etc.


If we are to describe the contents of experience, two things are needed: one - the ability to recognize the "parts" of the experience. Let's call these parts in the most general sense - perceptions. Two - meaning/concepts/ideas that go together with the perceptions. Let's consider the perception of yellow. The color sensation itself can be experienced together with a thought that attached the concept of yellow to the perception. The perception can come and go, there can be many yellow perceptions at once but in all cases it is possible to experience the same concept of yellow in relation to them. At this stage we don't know what this yellow perception represents - could be optical, could be imagined, could be hallucinated. There's nothing in the perception itself to immediately reveal anything about its origins. We encounter it as pure experiences of color. The idea of a hidden world behind the perception can only come later when additional concepts and ideas are connected to it through thinking.


The goal of this exercise is exactly to distinguish what is truly given as a hard fact of experience and what is only later added through thinking about the given.


So within the totality of experience we find perceptions, feelings, will, thoughts, concepts, ideas. All this is given as an amalgamation of experience. Everything moves and shifts. How do we make sense of all this? Where do we start? Is there anything stable within the given that we can anchor the experience to?

Cleric wrote:
Eugene wrote:There definitely is: it is the ever-present awareness of any perceptions, feelings, will, thoughts, concepts, ideas. The perceptions, feelings, will, thoughts, concepts, ideas are always changing and fleeting, the awareness of them never changes, it does not move and does not shift, it is ever-stable and all other experiences are anchored to it and inseparable from it.
Let's first try to equalize our understanding of what, for example, awareness means.

Clearly, awareness is not a simple perception that we can attach a concept to, in the manner we can attach a concept to the experience of red, of warmth, of pain, etc. There isn't something that we can point to and say "That's awareness".

Let's try to build up our understanding gradually. I'm not claiming this is some "official" definition, but it's something that we can reach in a rigorous way. I must warn that we need some extra concentration here. Casual newspaper-like skimming through, may not be sufficient.

We'll start again from a state with minimal prior knowledge of anything. In that state we are able to identify and attach concepts to elementary perceptions but we don't encounter "awareness" as such an elementary perception. The concept/idea of awareness is not something that immediately presents itself to us within the given. Yet we can work our way towards it.

Let's start from the most obvious things. We may have a visual perception of a table. Together with the visual content we experience the meaning, the concept of "table". We not only have an experience of a colorful blob but we recognize some meaning together with it. This is already an act of elementary thinking. Usually we don't consider thinking in this way - we'd rather picture it as a train of logical thoughts - but in our discussion we can assume a broader perspective and consider as thinking any act of connecting concept/idea to perception. Clearly, at some prior time, the colorful blob was just that (probably in early childhood) but we gradually learned to recognize something characteristic in that blob or any other similar blob, that resonates with the concept of "table". This may sound unnecessarily detailed but let's just be on the safe side and make sure everything is perfectly clear.

The next step could be to widen our visual field and encompass the whole room. Here again we experience the corresponding concept of "room". Then we widen further and arrive at the idea of visual perception as such - we now recognize that the visual perceptions of table and room are only instances within a more general visual field. Let's add now also auditory perceptions. We encompass our visual and auditory fields and experience the idea of "audio-visual perceptions". In this manner we add everything else that we can - all other senses, feelings, will, thoughts, imagination, memories.

Finally, we can even perceive the very act of what we have been doing so far. The actual experience of "experiencing ideas in relation to perceptions" can itself be recognized as such. Thus we have widened the scope of our perceptions as far as we can and now we also experience some meaning, some idea in relation to the thus widened experience.

At first, this idea is something concrete - it reflects the concrete sum-total of perceptions that we have encompassed. If we repeat the above steps in a different context we'll arrive at other unique sum-total idea. But we can also recognize that there's something common in the ideal contents in all instances. In a similar way we can experience many color blobs and finally extract the common ideal element within them as the concept of "table". In our case we can extract the general idea of "totality of experience" - words don't matter. Anyone can use another if so inclined. So every time we repeat the exercise we arrive at a unique totality of perceptions and their corresponding sum-total idea but we can also experience the generalized idea of "totality of experience". This idea has been abstracted out of the concrete experiences.

When we gave a name for that idea, we have in reality projected or condensed the idea into a symbol, a verbal thought. This symbol acts as a handle for the general idea. Now we can use it in language and anytime we think that symbol/verbal thought, the idea of "totality of experience" is evoked. What we must be perfectly clear about, though, is that we now experience this idea without the actual sum-total of perceptions. The perception to which the idea is attached is the thought-perception of the symbol - that's where they come together. But other that that, we can now throw around the concept as any other X, Y, Z.

This is something of extreme importance. We need to develop our ability to be perfectly clear whether we are experiencing concepts and ideas in relation to actual perceptions (like in our exercise) or in relation to a condensed thought-perception that acts as a symbolic grounding point for the generalized idea.

We need to really take our time and feel the difference. At every step of the exercise we are firmly grounded in the given. There are no "floating" concepts and ideas. Every meaning that we experience is in relation to concrete perceptions - no matter if individual or sum-total. Contrast this with the experience when we summon the thought-symbol as a grounding point for the idea. Unless we can make clear distinction between the two, confusion is inevitable.

Please note that nowhere in our discussion have we mentioned anything about a self. We are perfectly in line with Eugene. Let's consider a state of experience without self and self-driven thinking . There's no problem whatsoever to conceive of this state as perceptions together with corresponding ideas/meaning but without experience of a process that links them together. The link is ready-made, we don't feel responsible for it. There's also no problem to experience thoughts that we don't feel responsible for. In fact, this happens anytime we listen to someone speaking to us. This may sound striking for some, but it is indeed true, if we are able to observe correctly. When we listen to spoken words we allow the speaker to think for us. The auditory words directly evoke their corresponding concepts without feeling ourselves active in that process. It is different if we listen to a language that we barely understand. Then we perceive sounds but we have to think about them and translate them, thus we create the meaning of the speech ourselves. Another, slightly more pathological case could be if we are "hearing voices". Here again we experience perceptions and meaning without any activity on our side.

Yet we have to recognize that at any point of experiencing these no-self/no-thought states, active thinking can take over and connect own thoughts to the perceptions or project the meaning of the state into words (or any other form of thought).

So at this stage, if we really want to speak only of certainties, we can only say: as long as we experience active thinking, there's also a sense of us being responsible for the thoughts. If we passively absorb the perceptions and their automatically attached meanings, there's no apparent sense of self but at any point, the contents of experience can become the object of active thought and the sense of self emerges again. These are the facts of experience. Note that we are not saying "self exists" but that "sense of self exists". To claim that the self as such exists, we would have to point to a concrete perception. But we certainly do not find such a perception in the given. On the other hand, we most surely can have the sense of being the cause of the thinking process.

If we are to assert this sense to be an illusion we should really be able to extract that idea from the given. This is a typical example of the paradoxical situations we reach when we build upon abstract ideas. As long as we are dealing with abstract logic, for every statement we can form its inverse. For example, one statement could be "the self is an illusion because the fundamental no-self-awareness only imagines the self into existence". But we can just as easily build it's complementary: "the state of no-self is an illusion because it results only when the fundamental self-awareness imagines its own sense of self to be nonexistent" These things can never be dealt with through abstract reasoning. We are on firm soil only as long as we recognize what we find in the given. The facts of experience is that both self and no-self states are possible. The idea that one of them renders the other illusionary is added by us only quite artificially, it is not something that is contained within the given.

We have established that awareness is something that we can form a concrete idea about - we have the steps to experience it directly from the given. But if we construct a thought like "awareness dreams existence", we need to very vigilant. Quite impalpably, the concept of "awareness" becomes something different. It is one thing to say that the contents of experience have similarities with dream life and quite another that awareness dreams life. While the first establishes facts of experience, the seconds lays a much stronger claim, which to be sure, is not readily supported within the given. We are not claiming that it's impossible to have correct ideas even before having the corresponding perceptions. But we have to very careful with the implications of such ideas. "Awareness dreams existence" is not simply a beautiful expression but it has quite dramatic repercussions on what we'll consider possible and impossible, what can be considered knowledge and what chasing shadows. If we take that idea at heart, the totality of our experience immediately assumes the character of a thin film supported solely by the mysterious dreaming activity of awareness. Any further pursuit into the structure of the thin dream image becomes laughable. We either sit back and enjoy the dream or make the effort to wake up, as this is the only thing that makes sense if we are interested into unveiling the mystery of the dream. That's why we have to be so careful when we overlay our own ideas over the given. We all know how one such innocent idea, of subjective and unknowable by definition, objective world, has been overlaid on the given and is still causing generations of philosophers to break their heads against the implications. There's nothing wrong, it's even necessary, to explore such ideas but we really need to always look for ways to support the ideas within the given. If the ideas can live their existence only in the abstract we need to be extra cautious.

There're more things to be discovered if we investigate even more closely the thinking process but I'll stop here. So far the goal was to elucidate the intimate thinking process and to show that we are in position at any point to determine if our thinking deals with concepts and ideas that have been found within the given or we are juggling abstractly with thoughts that we have ourselves constructed and are now being overlaid over the given.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
Stranger
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Re: Can Idealism be without thought?

Post by Stranger »

I tried to dispel such "reductionist mysticism" so many times before, but Cleric keeps tirelessly beating this strawman :)

Let me try to explain in simple words. We all experience "subjectivity" in our every phenomenological experience (percept, thought, feeling etc), which we call "self", or "I". The problem of dualistic perception is that we, at a very early stage of our child development, developed a sense-idea that this subjectivity belongs to us only, that it is only our own personal subjectivity, and that it is different/separate from the subjectivity of other people. This is a cognitive mistake. If our parents and other people would correct that mistake, we would abandon it, but unfortunately 99.99999% of humans also carry that mistake, so it is culturally conditioned. Anyway, an important feature of that sense of "my own self" is that it is tightly associated with the sense of "my own body, thoughts, feelings" etc, they get wrapped into one "package" of "me and everything that I am" (which includes everything we identify ourselves with). So, when people start nondual practices, the first step they need to go through is to dis-associate their sense of subjectivity from their bodily sensations, thoughts and feelings in order to arrive to the understanding that the subjectivity and those phenomena are not indivisibly melded in a firm "package" structure of "my own self" (that is separate from similar "self-packages" of other people). In other words, to arrive at the understanding that "I am not the body, the feelings, the thoughts, I am something that subjectively experiences them". The practical way to do that is to experience one of those "no-thought" meditative states and phenomenologically prove that there can be a state of "pure subjectivity" without any bodily sensations, feelings or thoughts, and arrive at the experiential realization that "I am indeed not the body, the feelings, the thoughts, I am something else that subjectively experiences them". Once that is done, there is no point to get stuck in that "no-thought" meditation anymore (even though many people do get stuck in that state and believe that this is in fact the "nondual state" of their seeking). This "no-thought" stage is only temporary and provisional, and being stuck in it actually becomes an impediment for further stages of nondual spiritual practice. Instead, the next stages involve realizations that:

- There cannot be "many" subjectivities in the Cosmos, there can only be one subjectivity, one "I" ("I am THAT" stage-realization). In other words, there is only one way to subjectively experience (be aware), and all beings share the same "way of being aware".

- There is actually no duality between the subjectivity and the phenomena that are subjectively experienced, and that the phenomena are actually inseparable from their subjectivity as a fact of their direct phenomenological experience, there is actually no "gap" between any phenomenon and its subjectivity (subjective experience). Another related realization is that there is nothing else in the entire Cosmos other than subjectively experienced phenomena (because no matter how hard we try in meditation, we cannot experientially find any "thing" or phenomenon that would be separate from or exist independently of its subjective experience/awareness). Combined with "there can only be one subjectivity" realization, this becomes the nondual state of "I am everything" realization/stage, which is the realization that there is only One Divine Consciousness in which the entire Cosmos is unfolding by Thinking-Willing-Feeling creative activity and is being subjectively experienced through its individuated, but not separate, spiritual thinking-willing-feeling creative activities. Notice that for this stage to happen, it has to be a meditative experience necessarily with the presence of phenomena. The "no-thought" state would be totally useless at this stage.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
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