Can Idealism be without thought?

[Lou Gold]

a felt quality that for me is substantial.

Who would want idealism without thinking!

Who would want a lot of stuff without thinking?

[Lou Gold]

Perhaps again serendipitously, the following recently arrived in my email:

“If you pass on through the meadows with their thousand flowers of every color imaginable, from bright red to yellow and purple, and their bright green grass washed clean by last night’s rain, rich and verdant—again without a single movement of the machinery of thought—then you will know what love is. To look at the blue sky, the high full-blown clouds, the green hills with their clear lines against the sky, the rich grass and the fading flower—to look without a word of yesterday; then, when the mind is completely quiet, silent, undisturbed by any thought, when the observer is completely absent—then there is unity. Not that you are united with the flower, or with the cloud, or with those sweeping hills; rather there is a feeling of complete non-being in which the division between you and another ceases.

The woman carrying those provisions which she bought in the market, the big black Alsatian dog, the two children playing with the ball—if you can look at all these without a word, without a measure, without any association, then the quarrel between you and another ceases. This state, without the word, without thought, is the expanse of mind that has no boundaries, no frontiers within which the I and the not-I can exist.

Don’t think this is imagination, or some flight of fancy, or some desired mystical experience; it is not. It is as actual as the bee on that flower or the little girl on her bicycle or the man going up a ladder to paint the house—the whole conflict of the mind in its separation has come to an end. You look without the look of the observer, you look without the value of the word and the measurement of yesterday. The look of love is different from the look of thought. The one leads in a direction where thought cannot follow, and the other leads to separation, conflict, and sorrow. From this sorrow, you cannot go to the other. The distance between the two is made by thought, and thought cannot by any stride reach the other.

As you walk back by the little farmhouses, the meadows, and the railway line, you will see that yesterday has come to an end: life begins where thought ends.”

— Jiddu Krishnamurti

[SanteriSatama]

According to Krishnamurti, Jiddu was a real peace of Incontinentia.

Kenoma of complete non-being, pleroma of filling every orifice in between. A breath, and of course also thoughts can come and go also as they like. Like, if Kenoma is a womb, I'm the Biggus Dickus.

[Lou Gold]

According to Krishnamurti, Jiddu was a real peace of Incontinentia.

Kenoma of complete non-being, pleroma of filling every orifice in between. A breath, and of course also thoughts can come and go also as they like. Like, if Kenoma is a womb, I'm the Biggus Dickus.

There's a wonderful story of when JK was asked, near the end of his life, if he thought his teachings had changed the world. He said, "Of course not." The interviewer then asked, "So why did you spend your whole life teaching?" JD responded, "Why does the bird sing?"

[AshvinP]

advaita vedanta talks about pure awareness, without any thought. That's the real you.

I agree!

The question, however, is whether a 'Western Non-dualism' or 'rational spiritualism' is possible.

Yes, of course. It is not only possible, it has been happening for centuries. I think the better question is whether we can we only 'shine' and never 'whine'? My answer is no.

[Soul_of_Shu]

I think the better question is whether we can we only 'shine' and never 'whine'?

To paraphrase an old joke: Why do you keep whining so much? ................... wait for it ..................'cause it feels so good to stop.

[Lou Gold]

advaita vedanta talks about pure awareness, without any thought. That's the real you.

I agree!

The question, however, is whether a 'Western Non-dualism' or 'rational spiritualism' is possible.

Yes, of course. It is not only possible, it has been happening for centuries. I think the better question is whether we can we only 'shine' and never 'whine'? My answer is no.

Although I've not attained a 'shine' only state, I've had enough ritual and ordinary experiences to firm my faith that it is possible. In terms of much bigger stories, witness Ramana calmly assuring followers, as he was dying, that he was not going anywhere or Jesus on the cross asking forgiveness for his tormentors. Of course, one can parse, differentiate and debate words like 'shine' and 'whine'. I prefer poetry...

[Soul_of_Shu]

For sure, the great poets can turn that whine into bittersweet wine ...

[AshvinP]

I agree!

The question, however, is whether a 'Western Non-dualism' or 'rational spiritualism' is possible.

Yes, of course. It is not only possible, it has been happening for centuries. I think the better question is whether we can we only 'shine' and never 'whine'? My answer is no.

Although I've not attained a 'shine' only state, I've had enough ritual and ordinary experiences to firm my faith that it is possible. In terms of much bigger stories, witness Ramana calmly assuring followers, as he was dying, that he was not going anywhere or Jesus on the cross asking forgiveness for his tormentors. Of course, one can parse, differentiate and debate words like 'shine' and 'whine'. I prefer poetry...

What is poetry without any rhyme or reason? It vanishes into nothingness. We all know this implicitly. Ironically, it is only reason which can convince us reason is not necessary.

[Lou Gold]

Yes, of course. It is not only possible, it has been happening for centuries. I think the better question is whether we can we only 'shine' and never 'whine'? My answer is no.

Although I've not attained a 'shine' only state, I've had enough ritual and ordinary experiences to firm my faith that it is possible. In terms of much bigger stories, witness Ramana calmly assuring followers, as he was dying, that he was not going anywhere or Jesus on the cross asking forgiveness for his tormentors. Of course, one can parse, differentiate and debate words like 'shine' and 'whine'. I prefer poetry...

What is poetry without any rhyme or reason? It vanishes into nothingness. We all know this implicitly. Ironically, it is only reason which can convince us reason is not necessary.

As an approximation or a concession I prefer poetry while knowing that it is a mere finger pointing. Yes, reason or events bring us to the point of choice but it is the choice to experience that convinces us -- like walking barefoot across 10 yards of red hot coals.

It's hard to convince the rational mind that nothingness is not what it thinks it is. I believe this is why Dana likes the term 'empty-fullness' and I like 'extraordinary-ordinary' and 'choiceless-choice'.