Goff vs Carroll

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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: Goff vs Carroll

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Cleric K wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:38 pm OK, I see. So it wasn't the Burning Racket festival of 1960 after all ;)

The state of awareness devoid of content is an interesting phenomenon of our age. The future man (I sincerely hope it's the very near-future man) will look upon this stage not too differently from the way we look at the apes staring at the Monolith in the Space Odyssey.
Burning racket festival?! Not familiar with that one. In the 60's I was more into the burning guitar festival of Monterey

Seriously though, thanks for the offering. As usual much to digest. Out of curiosity, have you ever looked into
The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object, by the mystic Franklin Merrell-Wolff?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Eugene I
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Re: Goff vs Carroll

Post by Eugene I »

Thanks. Cleric, that's a blast :) Much to digest.

I also disagree with Adur's teachings and practices. As I said, once the the Consciousness-Thinking itself is recognized, there is absolutely no benefit in practicing the formless states, and they are actually counterproductive. In some Buddhist schools the practice of formless state is used (shamatha, djhanas) with the idea that it is easier to recognize the Consciousness when we are not distracted by thoughts and perceptions. But in other schools like Zen is is discouraged and not used at all.

One note on the term "emptifulness". I will let Shu to comment, but I don't think this has anything to do with formless state. The emptifulness is just another term for the same Consciousness-Thinking that wills, manifests and is aware/experiences all forms and ideas, and the same Consciousness-Thinking that is quietly at rest when the form-willing activity is at rest. Essentially there is no difference, it's the same Consciousness-Thinking ever-present, actively willing or at rest. In Buddhism "emptiness" means not emptiness from forms and phenomenal content, but emptiness from separate self-existence of "things" and "selves" (the illusion of duality and naive realism that we usually have a belief in).

But I have a question for you. What do you think is the reason for us as primordial living ideas to incarnate in such cognitively reduced and seemingly separated form of human existence (with physical and ethereal bodies)? Or in simple words, why do we incarnate into humans?
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
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Cleric K
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Re: Goff vs Carroll

Post by Cleric K »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:34 pm Out of curiosity, have you ever looked into
The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object, by the mystic Franklin Merrell-Wolff?
Impelled by comments by you and Scott, I've gone diagonally through random places of the book but I haven't read it in full.
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Cleric K
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Re: Goff vs Carroll

Post by Cleric K »

Eugene I wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:10 pm But I have a question for you. What do you think is the reason for us as primordial living ideas to incarnate in such cognitively reduced and seemingly separated form of human existence (with physical and ethereal bodies)? Or in simple words, why do we incarnate into humans?
We can only understand this if the question is placed in a proper context. Recently there was a question why alters have to eat. I posted this: viewtopic.php?p=10191#p10191

Questions like this can only be answered meaningfully if we take them in the full evolutionary context. The widespread new-age-like opinion is that the world above is like a heavenly lobby where souls are having a drink and then some say "Hey, why don't we drop down to good ol' Earth for a change." It's natural that with such conceptions it should look completely arbitrary that alters have to eat or incarnate on Earth.

It's similar with the incarnation question. As long as we imagine the disincarnate life as completely free flow, it faces us as a great mystery why would anyone take the pains of incarnate life.

I won't go in details here. Just few points. We must understand that the spiritual metamorphosis follows the same archetypal rhythmic flow on all scales. There's no better symbol than the growing plant which blossoms, gives fruit, then seed and from the seed a new iteration begins. The first-person spiritual perspective goes continually through such iterations, which are really nested iterations - iterations within iterations (one such is the waking/sleeping rhythm, which is fractal of the incarnation rhythm).

Things will become much more clear if we understand that what we witness today is also expression of the archetypal time rhythms but has been heavily polarized through the fall drama. In other circumstances the evolutionary flow would much rather be experienced as continuous (uninterrupted) stream of consciousness which passes rhythmically through sensory-like spectrum (which would be vastly different of course), then integrating into a totality from which a seed is extracted, from which the new iteration grows. It would be like going through waking in the fine-grained spectrum of consciousness, then something as expanding in a lucid dream that grows in Cosmic space, as the spirit tries to make sense of reality, until it begins to see the seed-tasks out of which the manifold elemental realms grow once again. Instead, this spectrum has become gradually polarized to such an extent that the spirit operating in the senses and intellect, so to speak oscillates orthogonally to the time dimension. The dimension of time is something quite real, even though not in the abstract way that mathematicians and physicists seek to imagine it as fourth geometric dimension. The dimension of time can only be grasped in the spirit of the post at the other thread, by attaining to the overarching ideas that extend in time and shape the curvature of meaning within which the states of being decohere (acts as a kind of wave function. For example, we can imagine states of being anywhere in space but the curvature of spacetime filters only those states of being which are compatible with the Earth along the geodesic). In this way, consciousness in the sensory-intellectual spectrum experiences itself only as succession of horizontal moment-slices. The logic of this progression of moments can be thought of only abstractly by modelling it through mathematical laws. So incarnate being completely loses consciousness along time, which is really to live in ideas that extend in time and shape the curvature along which the moment-slices decohere. After death, consciousness lives in the time domain but now the spectrum of the Earthly consciousness seems completely blurry because it oscillates in convoluted mechanical rhythms which are very different from the time-rhythms of the Harmony of the Spheres. Thus the space and time poles of the incarnate iteration has become out-of-phase, they've become orthogonal to each other.

This orthogonality of consciousness is what we're called upon to resolve today. We need to find the degrees of freedom of the spirit which run perpendicularly to the horizontal slices of sensory-intellectual consciousness along time. Physicists want to predict the path of planets through the curvature of spacetime but no one is interested to find that curvature as spiritual reality of Cosmic ideas along which the destiny of humanity unfolds.

So in a nutshell - we incarnate as humans because the spirit is going through archetypal rhythmic iterations. This is at the basis of any existence in Time. It's a fractal of meaningful outbreaths and inbreaths. So the question translates to something like "why when a baby is born it has to go through childhood." It is all a matter of rhythmic development, from seed, through growth to seed again. Of course, every next seed builds upon everything preceding it such that every next iteration could make more and more sense of the totality.

If the question is why these incarnations look the way they do, it is because of the severe polarization of the iterations, resulting in unprecedented orthogonality of consciousness. Through sin, incarnate consciousness has spread horizontally and entangled into oscillatory patterns that we know as the Earthly life. This in its very nature causes incarnate consciousness to turn away from spiritual reality because of the feelings of shame and guilt that stand on its way. So through many iterations the uninterrupted stream of consciousness should be restored and the spirit will begin to operate not only along the horizontal space plane (sensory-intellectual consciousness) but also along the axis of time. If we don't mess this up, we should gradually become conscious and artful engineers of the curvature of meaning along time. But for this to happen the forces of egoism (disproportionate sympathies and antipathies) must be overcome.
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Eugene I
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Re: Goff vs Carroll

Post by Eugene I »

Cleric K wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:35 pm So in a nutshell - we incarnate as humans because the spirit is going through archetypal rhythmic iterations. This is at the basis of any existence in Time.
Thanks Cleric, this is how I see it too.
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
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Eugene I
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Re: Goff vs Carroll

Post by Eugene I »

One thing to add here. In addition and not denying all that you say Cleric, there is still an important dimension of development emphacised in the non-dual traditions. The issue they address is the same as you mentioned: human egotism and "encloseness" within the bubbles of the spaces of our own individual minds. This is accompanied and greatly facilitated by so called "self-identification" where we identify ourselves with our narrow personal perspectives and believe that we are existing as separate "selves" perceiving the external "world" of similarly separate objects and other "selves". We identify with our imaginary sense of separate "self" and with our self-identified thoughts that tell us "I want this, I don't like that". This is a gross distortion of reality in which our human egotism, dualistic perception, sense of isolation and most of our psychological suffering is rooted. Non-dual traditions offer a way to break this bubble of identification by recognizing our intrinsic nature of cosnciousness-thinking that manifests the thoughts, including the sense of separate "self" and all self-identified thought and desires, from which all thoughts and perceptions originate and to which they subside. The purpose of this practice is, however, not to stop thinking and end up in a formless state, this is a mistake. The purpose is to continue along the evolution, but beyond the bubbles of the enclosed self-identification. It is only one of the metamorphic leaps on the path of the evolution of our souls.
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kanzas anymore" Dorothy
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: Goff vs Carroll

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Eugene I wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:20 pm One thing to add here. In addition and not denying all that you say Cleric, there is still an important dimension of development emphacised in the non-dual traditions. The issue they address is the same as you mentioned: human egotism and "encloseness" within the bubbles of the spaces of our own individual minds. This is accompanied and greatly facilitated by so called "self-identification" where we identify ourselves with our narrow personal perspectives and believe that we are existing as separate "selves" perceiving the external "world" of similarly separate objects and other "selves". We identify with our imaginary sense of separate "self" and with our self-identified thoughts that tell us "I want this, I don't like that". This is a gross distortion of reality in which our human egotism, dualistic perception, sense of isolation and most of our psychological suffering is rooted. Non-dual traditions offer a way to break this bubble of identification by recognizing our intrinsic nature of cosnciousness-thinking that manifests the thoughts, including the sense of separate "self" and all self-identified thought and desires, from which all thoughts and perceptions originate and to which they subside. The purpose of this practice is, however, not to stop thinking and end up in a formless state, this is a mistake. The purpose is to continue along the evolution, but beyond the bubbles of the enclosed self-identification. It is only one of the metamorphic leaps on the path of the evolution of our souls.
To be sure, I was once self-duped into thinking that with the revelation/realization of one's essential nature one had just caught a Hail Mary pass in the end-zone and the game of evermore gains was over, only to eventually discover that there is no end-zone :o
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Mark Tetzner
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Re: Goff vs Carroll

Post by Mark Tetzner »

I found the video today.
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