Goff vs Carroll

[Eugene I]

All troubles stem from the fact that thinking splits against itself (and contrary to modern non-dualism, eradicating thinking doesn't solve the problem). When thinking thinks the theory of mind, thought-images precipitate. Thinking (which is in the blind spot, unaware of itself) tries to predict the emergence of thoughts through different arrangements of thoughts.

Cleric, very useful post, thanks.

But on the above, I would ask you to give a quote form one of the modern good standing non-duality teachers, for example Rupert Spira, stating that to solve the splitting problem we need to eradicate thinking. Being very familiar with his teachings, I assure you that he never said or implied that. On the contrary, the main point of his teaching/practice is exactly what you stated: Consciousness (that you call Thinking) to become aware of itself. Same applies to many other good-standing non-duality teachers, such as Adyashanti, Tolle etc. Of course and unfortunately, there are many charlatans in that field who might teach to eradicate thinking, and we can't do anything about that other than to point out that they are doing it wrong.

[Anthony66]

The really interesting things happen when we try to apply the theory to predict our own thoughts. This breaks down immediately. It doesn't matter if it is quantum or classical. In all cases we have some kind of computation which predicts what we'll do next. The classic example is that the classical/quantum Turing machine analyzes the Universe (with our brain in it) and predicts whether we'll press red or green button. Of course, after presented with the prediction we can always press the other button and prove the algorithm wrong. The problem is that the Turing machine must calculate not only the Universe and the brain but also itself as it interacts with our brain. This of course requires that the machine must calculate itself, as it calculates itself calculating the Universe and so on. This can never settle to a stable answer. There's no answer that the machine can give which can be universally valid. We can always negate it.

That which is I have bolded is that which is denied by the likes of Carroll. To play devil's advocate, you are positing that thinking can break free from the clutches of QM and do otherwise. Such would manifest as an outward appearance of "matter" in violation of QM - that theory which has a track record of extraordinary predictive power.

[AshvinP]

The really interesting things happen when we try to apply the theory to predict our own thoughts. This breaks down immediately. It doesn't matter if it is quantum or classical. In all cases we have some kind of computation which predicts what we'll do next. The classic example is that the classical/quantum Turing machine analyzes the Universe (with our brain in it) and predicts whether we'll press red or green button. Of course, after presented with the prediction we can always press the other button and prove the algorithm wrong. The problem is that the Turing machine must calculate not only the Universe and the brain but also itself as it interacts with our brain. This of course requires that the machine must calculate itself, as it calculates itself calculating the Universe and so on. This can never settle to a stable answer. There's no answer that the machine can give which can be universally valid. We can always negate it.

That which is I have bolded is that which is denied by the likes of Carroll. To play devil's advocate, you are positing that thinking can break free from the clutches of QM and do otherwise. Such would manifest as an outward appearance of "matter" in violation of QM - that theory which has a track record of extraordinary predictive power.

Since I'm sure Cleric is asleep at this time in his area, I will just point out that he has addressed this before in the following comment.


viewtopic.php?p=12000#p12000

I understand that this may sound uneasy. It demands something which we're usually not very inclined to do. We need to contract, to become smaller and smaller until we become the size of our thought. Then we live with the thinking image that truly belongs to us, that is our true creative contribution to the totality of the World Content. On the other hand, our feelings, the bodily will, the bodily perceptions - they surround us as titanic reality which we simply can't deny. From this standpoint we have found our true size. From this standpoint we realize how we've been spreading our images all over the place and were trying to see the World Content as just one of those images. Now the image is only in what is our rightful possession - the reflection of our thought. That which we do not control, which is not reflection of our activity, we let speak for itself. Now we understand that the World Content is objective reality and much greater and powerful than our feeble thinking spark. Yet from this point we can begin to grow. Not by spreading fantasies again but by gradually learning about the laws, patterns, forces that govern the contents of the sphere. We start by putting our thinking in order, restore its proper musicality. Then we begin to apply this musicality in the realm of feelings, of sympathies and antipathies. As we master these, we come to know deeper forces in our soul, which hitherto have been carrying us as on strings. When we grow lawfully in the world where the strings are, we can guide the metamorphosis of the sphere with more and more freedom. Not by spreading fantastic images over the sphere and feeling disappointed that the World Content doesn't nudge but by finding the real forces of soul and spirit which once purified and organized by the "I", truly become our extensions, we can work and guide these forces - hopefully for the Good of all. When we understand things in this consistent and lawful way, we already know that we're deeply embedded within spheres within spheres of Time waves and we have a whole Cosmic evolution in front of us to evolve through the spheres. The bodily crucible is way greater than us. It is of the same essence as the firmament of the stars.

[AshvinP]

The really interesting things happen when we try to apply the theory to predict our own thoughts. This breaks down immediately. It doesn't matter if it is quantum or classical. In all cases we have some kind of computation which predicts what we'll do next. The classic example is that the classical/quantum Turing machine analyzes the Universe (with our brain in it) and predicts whether we'll press red or green button. Of course, after presented with the prediction we can always press the other button and prove the algorithm wrong. The problem is that the Turing machine must calculate not only the Universe and the brain but also itself as it interacts with our brain. This of course requires that the machine must calculate itself, as it calculates itself calculating the Universe and so on. This can never settle to a stable answer. There's no answer that the machine can give which can be universally valid. We can always negate it.

That which is I have bolded is that which is denied by the likes of Carroll. To play devil's advocate, you are positing that thinking can break free from the clutches of QM and do otherwise. Such would manifest as an outward appearance of "matter" in violation of QM - that theory which has a track record of extraordinary predictive power.

Since I'm sure Cleric is asleep at this time in his area, I will just point out that he has addressed this before in the following comment.


viewtopic.php?p=12000#p12000

I understand that this may sound uneasy. It demands something which we're usually not very inclined to do. We need to contract, to become smaller and smaller until we become the size of our thought. Then we live with the thinking image that truly belongs to us, that is our true creative contribution to the totality of the World Content. On the other hand, our feelings, the bodily will, the bodily perceptions - they surround us as titanic reality which we simply can't deny. From this standpoint we have found our true size. From this standpoint we realize how we've been spreading our images all over the place and were trying to see the World Content as just one of those images. Now the image is only in what is our rightful possession - the reflection of our thought. That which we do not control, which is not reflection of our activity, we let speak for itself. Now we understand that the World Content is objective reality and much greater and powerful than our feeble thinking spark. Yet from this point we can begin to grow. Not by spreading fantasies again but by gradually learning about the laws, patterns, forces that govern the contents of the sphere. We start by putting our thinking in order, restore its proper musicality. Then we begin to apply this musicality in the realm of feelings, of sympathies and antipathies. As we master these, we come to know deeper forces in our soul, which hitherto have been carrying us as on strings. When we grow lawfully in the world where the strings are, we can guide the metamorphosis of the sphere with more and more freedom. Not by spreading fantastic images over the sphere and feeling disappointed that the World Content doesn't nudge but by finding the real forces of soul and spirit which once purified and organized by the "I", truly become our extensions, we can work and guide these forces - hopefully for the Good of all. When we understand things in this consistent and lawful way, we already know that we're deeply embedded within spheres within spheres of Time waves and we have a whole Cosmic evolution in front of us to evolve through the spheres. The bodily crucible is way greater than us. It is of the same essence as the firmament of the stars.

Also I will add my own dim intuition here - the ideal forces underlying what QM is reflecting to us are probably about as powerful as those reflected by the black holes of GR.

Part of the process here is learning to trust our own intuitions again, not out of blind faith, but from careful reasoning through the reasons why those intuitions may be valid and courage to grow our sphere of experience. One such intuition is that we cannot simply will quantum matter to obey whatever rules we want or to change the orbits of Jupiter and Saturn. Whatever ideal reality these phenomena are reflecting to us, they are clearly very powerful and structured forces. Yet we do have constant evidence of humanity, perhaps even a few individuals, transforming the environment here on Earth in major ways and at an accelerating pace. So there is also no reason to assume any sort of discontinuity between our microcosmic cognitive forces and those of the Macrocosm.

[Anthony66]

That which is I have bolded is that which is denied by the likes of Carroll. To play devil's advocate, you are positing that thinking can break free from the clutches of QM and do otherwise. Such would manifest as an outward appearance of "matter" in violation of QM - that theory which has a track record of extraordinary predictive power.

Since I'm sure Cleric is asleep at this time in his area, I will just point out that he has addressed this before in the following comment.


viewtopic.php?p=12000#p12000

I understand that this may sound uneasy. It demands something which we're usually not very inclined to do. We need to contract, to become smaller and smaller until we become the size of our thought. Then we live with the thinking image that truly belongs to us, that is our true creative contribution to the totality of the World Content. On the other hand, our feelings, the bodily will, the bodily perceptions - they surround us as titanic reality which we simply can't deny. From this standpoint we have found our true size. From this standpoint we realize how we've been spreading our images all over the place and were trying to see the World Content as just one of those images. Now the image is only in what is our rightful possession - the reflection of our thought. That which we do not control, which is not reflection of our activity, we let speak for itself. Now we understand that the World Content is objective reality and much greater and powerful than our feeble thinking spark. Yet from this point we can begin to grow. Not by spreading fantasies again but by gradually learning about the laws, patterns, forces that govern the contents of the sphere. We start by putting our thinking in order, restore its proper musicality. Then we begin to apply this musicality in the realm of feelings, of sympathies and antipathies. As we master these, we come to know deeper forces in our soul, which hitherto have been carrying us as on strings. When we grow lawfully in the world where the strings are, we can guide the metamorphosis of the sphere with more and more freedom. Not by spreading fantastic images over the sphere and feeling disappointed that the World Content doesn't nudge but by finding the real forces of soul and spirit which once purified and organized by the "I", truly become our extensions, we can work and guide these forces - hopefully for the Good of all. When we understand things in this consistent and lawful way, we already know that we're deeply embedded within spheres within spheres of Time waves and we have a whole Cosmic evolution in front of us to evolve through the spheres. The bodily crucible is way greater than us. It is of the same essence as the firmament of the stars.

Also I will add my own dim intuition here - the ideal forces underlying what QM is reflecting to us are probably about as powerful as those reflected by the black holes of GR.

Part of the process here is learning to trust our own intuitions again, not out of blind faith, but from careful reasoning through the reasons why those intuitions may be valid and courage to grow our sphere of experience. One such intuition is that we cannot simply will quantum matter to obey whatever rules we want or to change the orbits of Jupiter and Saturn. Whatever ideal reality these phenomena are reflecting to us, they are clearly very powerful and structured forces. Yet we do have constant evidence of humanity, perhaps even a few individuals, transforming the environment here on Earth in major ways and at an accelerating pace. So there is also no reason to assume any sort of discontinuity between our microcosmic cognitive forces and those of the Macrocosm.

So let me do a bad paraphrase....

We are all carried along by forces much bigger than ourselves. Our inner conscious life is reflected/driven by the the laws of QM. BUT, we can ever so gradually transform our thinking process, eventually manifesting in the very laws of QM. Carroll's M_a term may become an experimental measurable.

[Cleric K]

Cleric, very useful post, thanks.

Thanks, Eugene, I'm glad it was of use.

But on the above, I would ask you to give a quote form one of the modern good standing non-duality teachers, for example Rupert Spira, stating that to solve the splitting problem we need to eradicate thinking. Being very familiar with his teachings, I assure you that he never said or implied that. On the contrary, the main point of his teaching/practice is exactly what you stated: Consciousness (that you call Thinking) to become aware of itself. Same applies to many other good-standing non-duality teachers, such as Adyashanti, Tolle etc. Of course and unfortunately, there are many charlatans in that field who might teach to eradicate thinking, and we can't do anything about that other than to point out that they are doing it wrong.

Of course, the image of brute annihilation of thinking is exaggeration (although, as you say, we can certainly find even such minor teachings). It would be more appropriate to say that the path of development of thinking into higher cognition is blocked. And I don't mean this in any demeaning way. I hold great respect for Spira and others. It is clear that their teachings help millions to find meaning in their life. But we should be very aware of a thin line. We spoke with Adur about this. It is OK to say "It's enough for me to lift my attachment to my bodily image, to my desires and opinions. I leave deeper knowledge for next life". And that's fine. It's much more than the majority of humans will ever accomplish. But this delaying of acquisition of deeper understanding of reality begins to build an artificial dam between the worlds. The greatest misconception is that we can have clear understanding of ourselves without understanding the deeper structure of reality. This can only be supported in a Flat MAL model, where we consider ourselves to be direct perspective of the One, while everything which has to do with structure, worlds, beings is our external environment. This gives the impression that as long as we focus on the general truth that all is consciousness, we're grounded in the foundations of reality - that is, nothing stands in between our Earthly perspective and the One. Everything of manifested nature is considered to be our relations with aspects of the One which stand as external reality to our perspective. (please don't get hung upon the word 'external'. It's used in full awareness of the unbroken essence of the One Consciousness).

Even though it is certainly an 'upgrade' in comparison to crude materialism, this view can block development of consciousness further down the line. It can be said that materialists are more objective about the way consciousness works in comparison to most spiritually inclined people. Through rigorous study, scientists have discovered something which is completely conflated by most spiritualists.



These are facts that can be found in any book on the brain. Here we have the neurological image of what we know as Willing, Feeling and Thinking. There are so many things that can be elucidated here. Everything comes together in such a beautiful way when these layers are understood in their true nature. Scientists are right to assume that these layers of the brain correspond to evolutionary transformations. It's only that it is imagined that this evolution has happened linearly entirely in the physical realm. Before there could be three parts of the brain in the physical body, there have been evolutionary iterations within spiritual space. There have been several convolutions of Cosmic Consciousness that increase the manifoldness of the Cosmos in expense of being decohered at the periphery.

The scientists are objective. The reptilian brain corresponds to our instinctive will. The limbic system and the hippocampus give the dreamy world of feelings, sympathies and antipathies, pain and pleasure. The neocortex awakes man to the light of thinking where all the below subconscious experiences are brought in meaningful unity through the ever expanding horizon of the "I"-being. The scientist says "The neocortex is the output, the 'pixels' of consciousness as produced by the activity below." This is fine. But where physicalism falls short is that because of its own nature, it is seen as impossible to have consciousness in the layers below the neocortex, in the same way the pixels on the screen say nothing about the hardware below.

The modern flattened spirituality fares no better. Not much is achieved when everything is conflated in the general term 'consciousness'. What is achieved is that spiritual activity is mastered to the extent that the chaotic patterns in the neocortex are quieted down and are then contemplated within the unbroken warmth and laminarity of the feelings rising from the midbrain (of course we use the brain as a placeholder here. Consciousness is neither generated, not reflected only in the brain). It's interesting that from this standpoint, modern non-dualism doesn't even have the right foundation to claim that consciousness is indeed one. I was thinking on commenting on this in relation to a BK interview someone posted here. There BK once again gave the example of the sensory deprivation tank and how when we remain in pure consciousness we live in the One consciousness. But this is such a logical fallacy that it's little saddening to hear it used by someone like BK, who is otherwise determined to crush the irrationality of materialism. The fallacy is to confuse featurelessness of consciousness with oneness of consciousness. By the same token we can say that two formatted hard drives are one just because both hold zeroes that can't be distinguished from one another. How can we ever be sure that the experience of empty consciousness is the background of reality and not simply the laminar completely local brain activity? To anyone who seriously considers these things it should be clear that we can never approach the oneness aspect of consciousness in such a way. Instead, we can only do that when we interact with the spiritual activity of other beings not only through the sensory spectrum but in the full spectrum, which includes thinking, feeling and willing. We speak of one physical space because we can interact with our physical bodies. In the same way, we can speak of one consciousness only if we can interact with thoughts, feelings and will of other beings in the same spiritual space. Just as little as standing still can prove that we share the same physical space, so it's impossible to know of oneness of consciousness if we stand still in its emptiness.

From the flattened perspective, willing, feeling and thinking are mere conscious phenomena, no different than red, green and blue. It is assumed that the master container is Consciousness and everything else are only permutations of conscious phenomena. As said, here the physicalist is much closer to truth than the flat spiritualist. The latter doesn't concern himself with the lawfulness and hierarchic relations between the phenomena. It's left out for the wildcard-Consciousness to take care of. When the ancient Hebrew was asked why this or that exists, his answer would be "Because Yahve made it so". Such is the view also of naive religiosity today: it's so simple - God created everything, what is there to philosophize about it? It's a powerful explain-all-wildcard. Similarly, nondualism delegates all the mysteries to Consciousness. If we can't figure something out we say "Don't worry, the intellect is limited, it can never understand these things. Consciousness takes care of everything." And even though from certain aspect we're justified to say that, we must be aware that this is only a general truth. It is useful to give us orientation but when it becomes a dam between thinking and the inexplicable Consciousness, it really makes the 'non-dual' designation appear strangely out of place.

So this is the point that we arrive at in almost every discussion. It is based on the belief that what we have is enough, that as long as we recognize the illusionary social role we play, we're firmly grounded in reality. This we can do comfortably only if we imagine that there's literally nothing between our Earthly perspective and the perspective of the One Consciousness that encompasses all (except the threshold of death).

On the other hand, in the light of the labyrinth examples from before, if we understand that the brain parts correspond to spiritual strata of reality, it will be clear that the stream of consciousness we experience at the surface (even if quieted down in meditation) is still only at the membrane of the neocortex.

When we walk through physical labyrinth we navigate through walls, stones, dust and so on. While the thinking process remains in the blind spot it looks like we're a third-person spectator of reality and we must find the proper mental picture that fits perceptions perfectly. But when we realize ourselves as a spiritual being then we begin to see thinking as movement through a spiritual labyrinth. The thoughts are our perceptions of the walls of it. This is our approach towards Imaginative cognition. We no longer think for the sake of an abstract mental picture of the supposed reality-in-itself but we find our own being in a higher order stratum of reality, within the 'channels', 'ducts' and 'pipes' of which we observe how our states of ordinary consciousness take shape. The neocortex becomes a panoramic experience of our thinking life. These states are further embedded within the flows of destiny, of which we experience only dim shadows in the forms of sympathies and antipathies. Even further we live in the purely spiritual world where the archetypal forces at the foundations of our existence are to be found.

We can observe a beautiful connection here. In lines of what Ashvin quoted above from a previous post, when we live in thinking we're in the middle between the below and the above, the small and the large, QM and GR. The more we move 'down', the more we move towards universality in multiplicity. Every animal has a brain yet the more primitive the animal is, the more common the brain behavior is. There's not much emotion or creativity to be found in a crocodile. It's a perfected willing organism that acts with cold determination. When we reach the realm of cells and particles everything becomes more and more universal, even though in infinite multiplicity. So at the lower pole we have Oneness projected into multiplicity. On the other hand, when we move 'up', we once again move towards universality but now as unity of meaning. The stream of our ordinary conscious states become meaningful when we grow in self-knowledge and understand how this stream is weaved out of our hitherto subconscious opinions, prejudices, likes, dislikes, motor habits and so on. The world content becomes even more meaningful when we see the latter elements in their interrelations with other human beings, with the social organism, with nations. More meaning is attained to when we perceive all these states of being as flowing within the streams of higher order time waves, which determine the evolutionary epochs within which memory integrates. And so on, as we approach asymptotically the Idea of Time and Being, within the Alpha and Omega poles of which, all existence is differentiated and played out as integration of memory/meaning. Of course, we shouldn't imagine this in a purely psychoanalytical or intellectually-metaphysical way. All these layers of reality are living ideas-beings within the One Consciousness and it's the task of higher order cognition to live consciously within them and not only in the concept-shadows they cast in the intellect. So here we have multiplicity encompassed as a meaningful whole in Oneness. It's a polarity of One, between the poles of which infinity of possible states of being are differentiated.

I realize that this post is somewhat chaotic and there are many things that must be supported from many different sides in order for the connections to be traced but my point was to simply draw attention to the way that conflating everything into an all-encompassing, yet cognized only abstractly, concept such as Consciousness, remains as a barrier to the real experience of the deep order of the same Consciousness that the nondualist knows and loves. Here we can learn from the physicalist and accept in humility that what we experience in our waking consciousness is only the surface of several convoluted worlds of soul and spirit. Flattening these worlds into the generalized 'consciousness' bars all possibilities to make sense of reality. One is left with the patient hope that things will be somehow magically resolved after death.

[Cleric K]

The really interesting things happen when we try to apply the theory to predict our own thoughts. This breaks down immediately. It doesn't matter if it is quantum or classical. In all cases we have some kind of computation which predicts what we'll do next. The classic example is that the classical/quantum Turing machine analyzes the Universe (with our brain in it) and predicts whether we'll press red or green button. Of course, after presented with the prediction we can always press the other button and prove the algorithm wrong. The problem is that the Turing machine must calculate not only the Universe and the brain but also itself as it interacts with our brain. This of course requires that the machine must calculate itself, as it calculates itself calculating the Universe and so on. This can never settle to a stable answer. There's no answer that the machine can give which can be universally valid. We can always negate it.

That which is I have bolded is that which is denied by the likes of Carroll. To play devil's advocate, you are positing that thinking can break free from the clutches of QM and do otherwise. Such would manifest as an outward appearance of "matter" in violation of QM - that theory which has a track record of extraordinary predictive power.

As I said, there's no contradiction in being able to predict something. The buttons example is not to tell that we can violate the lawfulness of the Universe. It only serves to say that this prediction can't include itself (the very process of prediction) into the picture. This leads to endless recursion which can never settle to an answer. It might work if the predicting machine doesn't need to predict its interaction with the brain. Then if the brain is not allowed to see the predictions, post-factum it can be seen if they match what the brain has done.

We must be clear that every time such thought experiments are made, we're assuming things. For example, it is assumed that for the prediction to work, the actual wave function of the brain must be loaded into the machine. It is well known that we can't do that even in principle because we can't measure the state of the brain without altering it (leaving aside all other practical difficulties). So what then? The scientist simulates and the predictions don't fit the observations of brain behavior. Then he says "Well, they would fit but as I scanned the state of the brain, I changed it, so now my simulation shows the results of a forked version of reality. It's natural that they diverge".

As a matter of fact, we can't show that even the biological life of a single cell can be fully explained through QM, let alone a whole brain. Today we understand relatively well the interactions of molecules in isolation but we can't yet simulate even the folding of a single protein, let alone a whole cell. So at this point science simply assumes that when the molecular compounds of life are put together, they'll somehow enter into the extraordinarily orchestrated dance we witness in biology.

But anyways. It's not the goal to speak ill of QM. The thing is that after all, QM is first and foremost a framework of thinking. PoF states:

We must first consider thinking quite impartially, without reference to a thinking subject or a thought object. For both subject and object are concepts formed by thinking. There is no denying that before anything else can be understood, thinking must be understood.

The emphasized part is what simply doesn't register in the minds of modern thinkers. How many of scientists today question if intellectual cognition is at all capable of solving the mysteries of existence? When building intellectual models of reality we implicitly place a very strong assumption: we assume that reality operates through laws that are capturable by intellectual patterns. Today scientists are very proud when stating how naive people are to believe that there's such thing as color. It is only because of the unique interaction of three types of cone cells that we experience colors, they say. There's no color in the photon. OK. Fair enough. But what about the scientist's own naivety when he considers that the way his thinking jumps from concept to concept and the jumps are related with abstract laws, has anything to do with the fundamental way reality functions? Isn't it plainly obvious how we project the world content on the patterns of thinking as we know them? As anything which lies in a blind spot, these things are simply not questioned. They are not questioned because even if they are questioned the human intellect doesn't know any other way it can experience thinking.

In our age it is already critically important to at least consider the possibility that the intellect is only a specific form of spiritual activity. As I wrote in my post to Eugene above, recognizing the limitations of the intellect and staring in the inexplicable totality of consciousness doesn't help either. This simply makes non-dualism quite dual and one simply waits for death to check the outcome of his bets.

Today we must take seriously that in intellectual thinking, our spiritual activity is flowing in quite specific patterns, which are experienced as meaning. To put it into a crude analogy, if our thinking spiritual activity is restricted to flow only at right angles, so to speak, then we'll only be able to think about reality as made of lines at right angles. On the other hand, if we find a way to move our spiritual activity in curved paths, we'll discover that reality is full of elements that follow curved paths. They have always existed but so far we have cognized only their rectangular shadows. Note: we perceive only that which we can register as meaning. In a similar way QM experiments are measured against orthogonal basis - for example horizontal or vertical polarization of a photon. Even if the photon had a circular polarization, when we measure it against a horizontal detector, we'll get the result as probability of the squared amplitude of the |H> vector. So if we take our intellectual thinking as such orthogonal basis, even if reality is much more complicated, we'll register only excitations along the eigenvectors we know.

This is something that should be taken seriously. We need the humility to at least allow as a possibility that reality may be far more extraordinary that we suppose. That the laws that constitute the unity of perceptions may need their corresponding forms of cognition if they are to be known in their reality and not simply reduced to computational and philosophical/metaphysical models of the intellect. Since the only form of cognition we know is that of thinking, it is only natural that the higher forms of cognition would be found through exploring the higher degrees of freedom of our thinking spiritual activity.

[Martin_]

Cleric, although it's always a treat to take part of the fruits of your Thinking, you didin't really humor Eugene. There are only sweeping generalisations above re: the actual teachings of others, no specifics. Which, I could imagine, might be hard to come by if your'e fully engaged in Imaginative Thinking. I don't know, just throwing it out there.

Personally, I see a lot of similarities in yours (and others) "teachings" with the Self-Enquiry of Ramana_Maharshi (and others). But maybe that discussion would warrant its own thread,.

[Eugene I]

Cleric, I agree that even good-standing modern non-dual teachings (Spira, Adur, Adya etc) are taking denialist or at least agnostic position with respect to the hierarchic realms beyond the human forms, and as a consequence, their are left with somewhat flattened spirituality. That is I believe due to the influence of modern materialist and post-modernist mentality that is mostly denialist towards after-life realms of existence. But that has not been the case with non-dual traditions such as Buddhist and Vedic, where the yogic practices are not only focused on the recognition of the nature of Cosnciousness, but also exploring and expanding of the boundaries of personal conscious activity into the sub-conscious and supra-conscious (higher cognition) layers (chakras, ethereal and astral bodies, multiple realms in the the Buddhist cosmology that correspond to the higher and lower levels of individuated consciousness, communication with higher-level beings etc). I will not go into details but everyone closely familiar with those traditions would know what I'm talking about.

The fallacy is to confuse featurelessness of consciousness with oneness of consciousness.

This is excellent point with which I entirely agree. But if you study Spira's teachings, he always emphasizes that the unity of consciousness is never broken regardless whether the phenomena arise or not, and this has to be realized experientially, because it is the same activity of consciousness/thinking that either manifests phenomena or temporarily stops to manifest them. This is elementary for any informed non-dualist. However, there is a benefit in the the "sensory deprivation tank" practice, and that has been also used in Buddhist and Vedic traditions. The experience of the formless state is an opportunity to discover the omni-present "background" of Consciousness that never goes away even when all forms disappear, this is a way to first time notice and discover it for people who never noticed it before, because usually we are so busy and lost living in the world of forms that we neve notice the presence of Consciousness/Thinking that "does" the forms and experiences them. But once such recognition is attained, there no benefit of continuing the "deprivation tank" practice, and then the next stage is to recognize the continuity of Consciousness in every state and form whether the phenomena arise or not.

So this is the point that we arrive at in almost every discussion. It is based on the belief that what we have is enough, that as long as we recognize the illusionary social role we play, we're firmly grounded in reality.

Again good point applicable to modern non-dual teachings and somewhat to traditions. But leaving the traditions behind, I'm on the same page with you and have always been saying that what is needed is BOTH: the non-dual realization as a gate to the next developmental level, and then continuing on the post-realization developmental path that opens new horizons towards hierarchies of higher levels of consciousness - esthetic, agapic, intuitive, creative, imaginative, and the whole universe of subtle and higher-order meanings. And I agree that the modern non-dual teachings, and to some extent the non-dual traditions, fall short of this. They are mostly focused on leading to the awakening and realization of the non-dual nature of Consciousness and dismantling ego-structures and dualistic perception of reality, but then leave you on your own.

All these layers of reality are living ideas-beings within the One Consciousness and it's the task of higher order cognition to live consciously within them and not only in the concept-shadows they cast in the intellect. So here we have multiplicity encompassed as a meaningful whole in Oneness. It's a polarity of One, between the poles of which infinity of possible states of being are differentiated.

Well, said, fully agree. One thing to add here though is that you also said above

"There have been several convolutions of Cosmic Consciousness that increase the manifoldness of the Cosmos in expense of being decohered at the periphery." "Since the only form of cognition we know is that of thinking, it is only natural that the higher forms of cognition would be found through exploring the higher degrees of freedom of our thinking spiritual activity."

And this is a key point - the hierarchy of the universe of Consciousness is not a one-dimensional pyramid, but it's a multi-dimensional manifold with a large variety of degrees of freedom, realms, levels, dimensions and structures. The particular mind structures specific to humans is only one possible form, there is a large variety of races and beings in the universe of Consciousness with very different mind structures. As a consequence, there is a variety of developmental venues and paths traversing along different dimensions in different directions. Of course, everything converges at the polarity of Oneness at the highest level, but Consciousness is not on the path of collapsing to the singularity of undifferentiated formless oneness, but on the contrary, on the path of exploring the infinite universe of states and ideas. The challenge is to continue on the exploration and development without getting lost and caught in the black holes of the states of illusory duality and separation.

Now, I'm getting a little esoteric here, but there are souls in the human realm that are native to human race and travel along the developmental path with all humanity lead by the higher-dimensional guides and the Sun Man at the top of hierarchy. For these souls your teachings and practices are totally applicable. But there are also guest souls that only cross the human realm temporarily but travel along different developmental paths toward different dimensions along with their soul groups and their hierarchy of levels and beings. In the depth of our souls we know it - we have a feeling of "belonging". Now, if you deeply feel that you belong to the human race, then you don't need to worry about it, you can fully be confident in your path along with humanity. But just be open and allowing and understand that there are temporary gests here who are on the path along different dimensions. Please be friendly with them if you find that they are doing things differently and not entirely aligned with human developmental process. The only thing needed here is allowing for diversity.

[Cleric K]

Cleric, although it's always a treat to take part of the fruits of your Thinking, you didin't really humor Eugene. There are only sweeping generalisations above re: the actual teachings of others, no specifics. Which, I could imagine, might be hard to come by if your'e fully engaged in Imaginative Thinking. I don't know, just throwing it out there.

Personally, I see a lot of similarities in yours (and others) "teachings" with the Self-Enquiry of Ramana_Maharshi (and others). But maybe that discussion would warrant its own thread,.

Hi Martin,
I speak in general because there are indeed general winds, which if grasped correctly by the way, a big part of the mystery will be lifted automatically. There are many nuances but in the broadest lines we can look at what was said earlier about the Great Polarity - oneness multiplied in perception and multiplicity united in oneness of meaning.

These two poles represent two tendencies of conscious attitude. The former is very well exemplified in contemporary science. The focus is on the multiplicity of perceptions which are sought to be related through mathematical laws. Yet because these relations are sought entirely in the intellect, they always remain a fragmentary patchwork of abstract rules.

The other tendency focuses on oneness but since the intellect finds itself powerless to approach this oneness (it would have to cross the threshold of death if it was to do this consciously), it postulates its own inadequacy. It declares itself an illusion so that the now mute "I" merged with the background, can flow in mystic feeling-unity with that which thinking can't grasp. Any real experience of oneness is to be expected after death.

So the common between the two polar tendencies is that they both see the threshold of death as a hard barrier. The first tendency simply can't conceive of existence independent of the multiplicity of bodily processes. The second yearns for this existence but patiently waits for the multiplicity inherent in Earthly life to be cast away at death.

This has been spoken of many times by now but the point of intersection between these two tendencies is bestowed to us at any point of our waking life. The unity of multiplicity of perception with the oneness of meaning, is being continually restored in thinking. These are obvious things but they are simply being avoided. Most teachings speak of Consciousness as the creator of everything. Think about it: do we have any living example of things being created in consciousness besides thinking? Not speaking of things appearing in the field of consciousness without knowing how and why but about things that consciousness feels creatively responsible for. After all, if it's spoken about Consciousness being the creator of everything it is only logical that there should be a first-person experience that corresponds to this creative act. Isn't it odd that we speak of oneness but at the same time when our thinking (which is the only example of something that consciousness brings forth from itself) thinks about itself, it attributes its own activity to something else? The first tendency attributes it to the world behind consciousness (matter, energy, whatever). The second tendency attributes thinking to ... well .. the One Consciousness. Except that, strangely enough, thinking which is supposed to be the creative activity of Consciousness, now denies its reality and calls itself a product of ... Consciousness (but now as a third-person entity). In other words Consciousness celebrates its non-duality with itself but as soon as it experiences itself thinking, it splits against itself and declared that it's an illusion that Consciousness can be aware of its own existence (that is, call itself an "I") and thus delegates its illusionary reality to the Consciousness that now suddenly has become quite dual to its own thinking aspect.

These are elementary things and the reason that they are looked right into the eyes and yet disregarded, has nothing to do with their logic. The logic is there, it's plain as day, it shines brighter than the eyes can handle. There are forces of completely different character which swing us as pendulums between these two Great Poles. We pass through the midpoint for a split second, which is enough to give us the confidence that we exist, yet we dare not approach this center and take the Cosmic responsibility of being a thinking perspective of the One Consciousness. This is avoided because it becomes very difficult to find excuses if we approach it as reality. In the first tendency the ego feels immune because it's safe within the castle of the skull. In the second tendency the ego feels immune because it feels itself to be an illusion and gladly expects the moment of death when it won't have to deal with itself anymore. But if the ego understands its Cosmic burden, then it's difficult to find excuses, because it's clear that any limitations are self-imposed limitations. The ego knows that it is up to its freedom to investigate the gradient of Being which brings it from the heights of the Cosmos to the point of view in the skull.

In this sense, I don't overthrow with prejudice any teaching. I have nothing against the term non-dualism. I consider myself non-dualist too. But I'm interested in the process of bringing the wild swing of the pendulum in a spiral towards the Center, where the "I" of the Cosmos begins its self-conscious evolutionary journey, even though from a humble shell of a human ego. A journey that will turn the Cosmos inside-out through the pinhole of the "I". If Maharshi and others see evolution in this way I'll stand corrected. But from my explorations in their teachings one is left with quite different soul mood.