Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

AshvinP wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:07 pm To be clear, I am asking where you would place the meaning that one reflects when perceiving these thought-forms. Same answer? If so, then my follow up is where you place the 'story-maker'?
It's the boundless, beginningless 'place' of the here and now.
Also, let me specify that this image represents the Cosmic Idea in all of its manifestations up to present day.
Intriguing story. I might imagine another. What they share in common seems paramount.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:26 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:07 pm To be clear, I am asking where you would place the meaning that one reflects when perceiving these thought-forms. Same answer? If so, then my follow up is where you place the 'story-maker'?
It's the boundless, beginningless 'place' of the here and now.
Also, let me specify that this image represents the Cosmic Idea in all of its manifestations up to present day.
Intriguing story. I might imagine another. What they share in common seems paramount.

Alright well it seems you are placing that meaning in the very Center, the Ever-Present Origin so to speak, which is what I would call "over-spiritualization". It is felt your perception of the meaning takes you right into the heart of the Cosmic Idea. But if this were true, then Eugene would have a point - we would really be living in a confused reality of contradictions where every idea manifests different appearances at odds with one another. It only makes sense of our experience if this meaning exists along the outer brown shell, the very periphery of the Sphere, where abstract intellect rules. That is precisely why there are real ideas with real meaning which nevertheless appear to us, in our current intellectual perspective, as contradictory in their meaning.
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Re: Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

Post by Eugene I »

AshvinP wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:02 pm That is precisely why there are real ideas with real meaning which nevertheless appear to us, in our current intellectual perspective, as contradictory in their meaning.
Aha, interesting.
So, the statement is that there are real ideas with real meanings. And perhaps, as opposed to them, unreal ideas with unreal meanings? So I can have a thought with a certain meanings, but the meaning can be real or unreal?
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Re: Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

Post by Eugene I »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:13 pm
Eugene I wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:49 pm Case #2:
1. "Conscious experience arises from energy" per JF claim
Eugene ... you've referred a number of times now to JF, and I had no clue as to who JF is until now: you mean Jeffrey Williams. One does feel for any participants delving into the forum for the first time, if beginning with this thread, trying to figure out who all these abbreviations are referring to.
JF is JeffreyW and we discussed it in this thread
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Re: Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

AshvinP wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:02 pmAlright well it seems you are placing that meaning in the very Center, the Ever-Present Origin so to speak, which is what I would call "over-spiritualization". It is felt your perception of the meaning takes you right into the heart of the Cosmic Idea. But if this were true, then Eugene would have a point - we would really be living in a confused reality of contradictions where every idea manifests different appearances at odds with one another. It only makes sense of our experience if this meaning exists along the outer brown shell, the very periphery of the Sphere, where abstract intellect rules. That is precisely why there are real ideas with real meaning which nevertheless appear to us, in our current intellectual perspective, as contradictory in their meaning.
I'm not sure what is referred to as the 'centre' of the boundless, beginningless 'place' of the here and now. I suppose it would be a given perspective associated with the apparency of a locus of Awareness. Whatever the immanent meaning of Awareness experiencing some version of here and now, it seems aperspectival, and inextricable from that experience, regardless of any story that may be added about it. Now, if all these apparent loci of Awareness can only agree on a story, perhaps I could retire as mod of this forum ;)
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Eugene I wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:45 pmJF is JeffreyW and we discussed it in this thread
Guess I missed the part about 'JF' hereto-forth being used when referring to JeffreyW, after we were mostly using 'JW'. :?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

Post by Eugene I »

oh sorry :)
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Re: Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

Post by Eugene I »

I’m studying this paper that is basically commentaries on PoF epistemology. Very interesting and revealing. There is a lot there, I will only emphasize the relevant points. I’ll be posing a series of posts on the subject.

Step 1.Thinking and Reality.
Steiner writes:
Only our immediately given world-image (Weltbild) can offer such a starting point, that is, that which lies before us prior to subjecting it to the process of cognition in any way, before we have asserted or decided anything about it by means of thinking. This “directly given” is what passes us by, and what we pass by, disconnected but still not divided into individual entities, in which nothing appears distinguished from, related to, or determined by anything else … Before our conceptual activity begins, the world-picture contains neither substance, quality, nor cause and effect; distinction between matter and spirit, body and soul, do not yet exist. Furthermore any other predicates must be excluded at this stage. The picture can be considered neither as reality nor as appearance, neither subjective nor objective, neither as chance nor as necessity; whether it is a “thing-in-itself” or mere representation cannot be decided at this stage.

... Differentiation of the undifferentiated given into individual entities is already a result of cognitive activity

If a being with a fully developed human intelligence were suddenly created out of nothing
and then confronted with the world, the first impression on his senses and his thinking
would be something like what I have just characterized as the unmediated given. In
practice
, we never encounter the given in this form — that is, there is never an experienced
division between a pure, passive turning toward the given and the cognitive grasp of the
given

This directly given content includes everything that enters our experience in the widest
sense: sensations, perceptions, opinions, feelings, deeds, pictures of dreams and
imaginations, representations, concepts and ideas.

We must find the bridge from the world as given to the world-picture that we build up through cognition.

But when we want to know something other than thinking, we can do so only with the help of thinking
Brady (the author) comments
Given an “other than thinking,” how do we come to grasp it by thinking?
Thus cognition can do nothing else but make its start from the field as it is given. Cognition must respond to a content that is, for cognition, totally indeterminate.
The takeaway of it is this:
There is a GIVEN (experienced world content), and thinking with concepts and ideas is only a part of it. It is inseparable part, because every outcome of thinking immediately becomes part of the Given. But thinking with ideas is not all there is (Given), but only inseparable part of it. Therefore, inevitably, not all that is in the Given are ideas and thinking activity, there are aspects of the Given that are not ideas and not Thinking.
The activity of thinking is to bridge from the world as given to the world-picture that we build up through cognition.

Next, how do we differentiate concepts and ideas from the rest of the Given?
Steiner wrote: It is a characteristic feature of the rest of the world-content that it must be given if we are to
experience it; the only case in which the opposite occurs is that of concepts and ideas:
these we must bring forth if we are to experience them.
Is est: The intentional "bringing forth" is a quality of thinking activity that distinguishes ideas from the rest of the Given.

My comments:
This is literally what Steiner says, period. And that is what I 've been saying all along: the Reality given to us (i.e. given to us in our 1-st person conscious phenomenal experience) is not an idea, but it does contain ideas as a part of itself. The role of thinking is to manifest ideas that cognize the Given without becoming separate from the Given. This apparent "split" between the ideas and the rest of the given is not a real duality, because the ideas never become apart from the Given, but automatically become inseparable part of the Given the very moment they are brought forth.

Steiner confirms this:
Through a postulate we have separated a particular part from the rest of the given content;
this was done because it lies in the nature of cognition to start with just this part. Thus it
was separated only to allow us to understand the act of cognition. In so doing we must be
clear that we have artificially torn apart the unity of the world-content. We must realize that
what we have separated has a necessary connection to that content irrespective of our
postulate.
So far it makes perfect sense!

Note: this is about the same as I wrote here (and Ashving criticized here as dualism), with the exception that Steiner uses the word "thinking" specifically to designate the cognitive activity and as opposed to the rest of the Given, while I used "Thinking" in that post that is synonymous of the "Given" (being confused by Ashvin presentation that thinking is equivalent to consciousness and the Given).

Apparently, Ashvin has been misrepresenting Steiner's phenomenology-epistemology. The whole world as given to us (in our phenomenal 1-st person perspective), according to Steiner, in not only the universe of thinking activity and ideas that it manifests. There is something in the Given Reality that is "other than thinking" (i.e. not thinking and not ideas) but which is for thinking to attempt to comprehend. Moreover, the thinking cognitive activity that bring forth ideas in order to comprehend the Given never split the unity of the Given into any duality, because, notwithstanding the ideas being "applied" to the Given, they never become really apart from the Given (because they are automatically included in the Given the very moment they are brought forth and experienced by thinking).

My other comment:
Given is how the Reality is presented to us in our 1-st person conscious experience. We do not know if the Given is all that the wholeness of Reality is, or if it is only a part of it and there are other parts of Realty hidden from our sight. Of course, the latter is very reasonable to assume, but it still would only be an assumption.

More to follow
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Re: Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

Post by AshvinP »

Eugene I wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:08 pm Apparently, Ashvin has been misrepresenting Steiner's phenomenology-epistemology. The whole world as given to us (in our phenomenal 1-st person perspective), according to Steiner, in not only the universe of thinking activity and ideas that it manifests. There is something in the Given Reality that is "other than thinking" (i.e. not thinking and not ideas) but which is for thinking to attempt to comprehend. Moreover, the thinking cognitive activity that bring forth ideas in order to comprehend the Given never split the unity of the Given into any duality, because, notwithstanding the ideas being "applied" to the Given, they never become really apart from the Given (because they are automatically included in the Given the very moment they are brought forth and experienced by thinking).
Eugene,

This is a simple case of you misunderstanding what you are reading (again) and projecting the error onto me. I highly recommend that, before reading anymore and forming conclusions, you run your understanding of each section by us first so we can make sure you are really understanding what was written. It would actually be better to start with PoF rather than this commentary on it, but I suppose the former has been put off indefinitely...

Steiner is not concluding anything about the underlying essence of the "given" at this point - he is not claiming there is any essential nature of the given "other than thinking" which thinking must model for itself. That is made very clear in the first paragraph you quote - "that which lies before us ['the given'] prior to subjecting it to the process of cognition in any way, before we have asserted or decided anything about it by means of thinking."

You really need to try hard to separate the epistemic method of phenomenology from the metaphysics you are used to, which posits the essence of what is experienced from the outset. This is not at all done by Husserl or Steiner, because they saw the flaws in that reasoning and knew that it smuggled in dualist assumptions which threw off all subsequent reasoning and conclusions. You have already managed to interpret a thoroughly anti-dualistic epistemology as a dualist one (simply saying your approach is "not dualist" does not overcome the dualism)... basically perceiving everything that is written as a reflection of your own thoughts, rather than the thoughts of the author writing the words. The force of dualistic projection is strong in this one :)
Last edited by AshvinP on Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
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Re: Phenomenological idealism: definitions of common terms

Post by Ben Iscatus »

Eugene, what about perceiving via the senses (apart from thinking)?
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