You really can't tell when people are just having some fun, can you Ashvin?AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:19 amMartin_ wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:23 pmExactly where did i create dualism? (and how?)AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:07 pm
We practically don't re-cognize anything as a conscious agent, so yes I can think of many examples : ) Pythagoras spoke of the music in the movement of the celestial spheres. This is literally true in my view.
But I suspect you are trying to highlight that ideational agency underlies all such Macrocosmic music, as it does microcosmic human music, and that is exactly right. Lou and Martin don't realize they have created dualism of Nature and man above. The human ideational spirit is not other than Nature and, as the Emerson quote on the other thread suggested, is a microcosmic expression of Nature's evolution into self-awareness. Humanity is the stage in Nature's evolution in which it awakens to itself and comes to know, appreciate, and make consciously manifest its heavenly choir.
Martin - see below:
We should ask ourselves, why are we seperating out these natural phenomena from conscious agency or ideational activity? For one, it should be admitted that this makes no sense under metaphysical idealism, but only makes sense under materialism-dualism. Secondly, we should admit that it is naive realism if we do not continue to Reason through the natural phenomena, which all too often we don't. Third, we should confront the fact that we are just idly speculating when there is absolutely no need to, because we have great evidence of exactly what rhythm, melody, harmony, etc. in musical aesthetic are reflecting in our immanent experience, IF we choose not to leave ideational activity in the blind spot and embrace "mysterious emptifulness" as the explanation for everything for some unknown reason.Martin wrote:Also, as Lou pointed out, if we interpret "conscious agent" strictly, in my case according to BK; wer're not left with much to choose from: falling rocks, blowing wind, and moving water in any of its forms is pretty much it. Oh, one more: The crackling of the fire. That's the 4 elements, btw.
I think it was you who said there was no need to read Steiner because Cleric was explaining everything much better on the other phenomenological idealism thread. And Cleric has outlined a phenomenology of music quite a few times on this forum, very imaginatively and adeptly as usual. But this is precisely why people may want to consider starting with Steiner's PoF - because all of Cleric's brilliant illustrations wash away like castles made of sand when the person reading them has not figured out why the illustrations work so well in the first place, which is the simple fact that they are reflections of the same ideational activity which Cleric is using to create those illustrations. That is what PoF provides utmost confidence in by guiding us through the phenomenal logic so we can discover it afresh from within ourselves.
Just because i say to interpret something a certain way, at a particular point in a specific discussion, it doesn't mean that I think this is how it is!
It's called having a discussioin / taking sides for the sake of argument / trying something out and see where it leads.
(there's a little "if" there in the text if you didin't notice, which is meant to indicate that we're engaging in a hypothetical scenario, not necessarilly a real one)
What is the thread about. It's about MUSIC. not About bl**dy dualism vs monism. I picked the division because Shu Asked an interesting question, and that division was a good compromise which focused the thinking on things like "can rocks make music?".
Yes. andother answer would be: Since everything is a conscius agent there is no such thing. But. this thread isn't PRIMARILLY about the ontiological prime. it's about Music.
So, my statement was never an ontological statement as in "This is how it is". It was a "let's have some fun, and see what happens if we play around a bit, maybe following this trail of thought can lead to something interesting.
So, just, like, peace out dude. Stop seing the Devil behind every rock