Philosophical Speculations

Figures. I was just thinking we should publish "Criticism" as a book...

I agree this place has been a tad unbalanced lately, both in terms of topics and levels of participation (~45% of the posts is from the top 3 posters).

BUT, I wouldn't get my hopes up finding a better place where views are being discussed with such passion and tenacity without letting it implode into a total sh*tshow.

It will all have to start from scratch again with no depth.

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:50 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:09 am
I hope you see I am proceeding in good faith, despite all the reasons to assume the worst. I have seen enough here to know the phantom layer of abstract concepts moving in circular logic is no joke. It is the real deal. Addiciton is the best metaphor here (more than a metaphor, really) - when we are flowing along with the destructive patterned thinking, we will have no idea it is a problem. All of our addictive behaviors will seem perfectly natural and justified to us. It is only when we seriously confront it with our thought that it rises up against us as a terrible force of nature. But we are sorely mistaken if we assume our own ignorance is an excuse, especially after it is repeatedly brought to our attention. Actually, that is the reason why we avoiding confronting it - we don't want to assume responsibility for it and feel ignoring it will keep it at a safe distance, as a vague dream we once had. But no one else is going to take responsibility for our addiction. This is not about who is "right" and who is "wrong", it is about all of us helping each other to overcome the addictions we all share. And one person who refuses to do that but also wants to express his opinion loudly and often can easily make it very difficult for everyone else in the group who has admitted they have a problem.

Maybe the 12 step AA program could work for abstraction addiction. "My name is so-'n-so and I'm an addict ... "

Yeah that's exactly what I was picturing too

AA, NA, etc. work because they are founded on radical honesty with oneself and everyone is encouraged to be honest in this way. No one speaks of "tolerance" as an abstract intellectual theory of behavior, while practically showing intolerance in accusatory behavior, but as a concrete experiential reality based in the fact we are all equally flawed in many of the same underlying ways, but there is something we, as self-aware individuals, can do about it as well. Confession, repentance, death-rebirth... these 3 are at the heart of overcoming all addictions of idolizing intellectual mental habit (sin).

This feels like a coup, but in reverse, the leader of the country has just gotten up and left his nation to it. I definitely think that "criticism" should be a book, I do not think I have ever seen a thread that insanely passioned and exhaustive and dynamic and yet equally repetitive all at the same time on any forum, the only rough equivalents being wars of attrition usually based off enraged insults participated in by venomous trolls that can go for weeks on reddit or facebook. Criticism felt like something was at stake, it was a battle, a landmark of philosophy on the internet and perhaps the wound that may one day kill this forum.

Well, let's face it, almost all of the commentary in recent months has involved a dozen or so participants who quickly signed on here as refugees from the old forum when it was laid to rest. As for how many more of the old gang followed in the immediate aftermath, the list shows the number of early sign-ons in the first few weeks peaking at about 75, most of them usernames I recognize from the old forum. Of those, most have not tended to be involved in a lot of regular commentary, posting very sporadically. Since then, over almost a year, the list has grown to 294, with about 16 of those shown as 'inactive'—i.e. they signed on, then signed off same day, never making a comment. As for the all the others, they show some initial involvement, sometimes to ask a question or two, often directed at BK, to which they may never follow up on replies, or sometimes there's a flurry of truly inspired posts over a couple of weeks, then they either go into lurking mode, or lose interest altogether.

But for whatever reason, only a hardcore group is inspired enough, or has time enough, to post on a regular basis. My guess is that of those original 75 who quickly carried over from the MS gang, perhaps half of them check in from time to time, but find little reason to join in whatever discussion may be happening at that time. Same with some unknown number of the relative newcomers. However, it would seem that the majority have little or no interest in the commentary, either not inspired or confident enough to join in, or perhaps finding that we might as well be speaking Inuktitut for all the sense it makes to them. So what can I say, for those who are inspired by it, enjoy it however long it may last.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:08 pm

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:50 am

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:09 am
I hope you see I am proceeding in good faith, despite all the reasons to assume the worst. I have seen enough here to know the phantom layer of abstract concepts moving in circular logic is no joke. It is the real deal. Addiciton is the best metaphor here (more than a metaphor, really) - when we are flowing along with the destructive patterned thinking, we will have no idea it is a problem. All of our addictive behaviors will seem perfectly natural and justified to us. It is only when we seriously confront it with our thought that it rises up against us as a terrible force of nature. But we are sorely mistaken if we assume our own ignorance is an excuse, especially after it is repeatedly brought to our attention. Actually, that is the reason why we avoiding confronting it - we don't want to assume responsibility for it and feel ignoring it will keep it at a safe distance, as a vague dream we once had. But no one else is going to take responsibility for our addiction. This is not about who is "right" and who is "wrong", it is about all of us helping each other to overcome the addictions we all share. And one person who refuses to do that but also wants to express his opinion loudly and often can easily make it very difficult for everyone else in the group who has admitted they have a problem.

Maybe the 12 step AA program could work for abstraction addiction. "My name is so-'n-so and I'm an addict ... "

Yeah that's exactly what I was picturing too

AA, NA, etc. work because they are founded on radical honesty with oneself and everyone is encouraged to be honest in this way. No one speaks of "tolerance" as an abstract intellectual theory of behavior, while practically showing intolerance in accusatory behavior, but as a concrete experiential reality based in the fact we are all equally flawed in many of the same underlying ways, but there is something we, as self-aware individuals, can do about it as well. Confession, repentance, death-rebirth... these 3 are at the heart of overcoming all addictions of idolizing intellectual mental habit (sin).

Actually 12 steps doesn't work all that well.

“Peer reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between five and 10 percent,” writes Dodes. “About one of every 15 people who enter these programs is able to become and stay sober.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ps/284616/

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:01 pm Actually 12 steps doesn't work all that well.

“Peer reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between five and 10 percent,” writes Dodes. “About one of every 15 people who enter these programs is able to become and stay sober.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ps/284616/

5-10% is actually higher than I thought it would be in our current stage of the 'meaning crisis'. But also, I am clearly speaking of the underlying spiritual principles from which these organizations were originally formed, not any particular manifestation of them in 21st century secularized culture. I wouldn't be surprised if soul, spirit, etc. are not even mentioned in these programs anymore.

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:01 pm
Actually 12 steps doesn't work all that well.

“Peer reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between five and 10 percent,” writes Dodes. “About one of every 15 people who enter these programs is able to become and stay sober.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ps/284616/

Apparently, many are finding that psychedelic assisted therapy, mainly now only available in clinical trials, or with some therapists offering it 'underground', is showing very promising results with all kinds of addictions, albeit there's not enough long term data to know how long it lasts. I've no clue what impact it would have on abstraction addiction

Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:20 pm

Jim Cross wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:01 pm
Actually 12 steps doesn't work all that well.

“Peer reviewed studies peg the success rate of AA somewhere between five and 10 percent,” writes Dodes. “About one of every 15 people who enter these programs is able to become and stay sober.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ps/284616/

Apparently, many are finding that psychedelic assisted therapy, mainly now only available in clinical trials, or with some therapists offering it 'underground', is showing very promising results with all kinds of addictions, albeit there's not enough long term data to know how long it lasts. I've no clue what impact it would have on abstraction addiction

I agree about psychedelic assisted therapy. Some of this work goes back to Humphry Osmond and the early 1950's then, when the sixties came, the research all got paused and has only recently picked up again.

I think Naltrexone might be especially useful with the Sinclair method. The method is counterintuitive since it actually requires the person undergoing treatment to drink. It works by removing the pleasure the person obtains from drinking basically leaving the person with only the negatives of alcohol and none of the pleasure.

Perhaps if Eugene had only commented more he would have cured himself.

How about a category in the forum dedicated to Bernardos work? Im not really interested in Steiner or Whitehead or specific religions but would love to engage with others on analytic idealism in a more focused way?