The Central Topic

[Soul_of_Shu]

One thing which simply doesn't make sense is the whole talk about evolution, gaining experience, gaining knowledge, etc. These things are simply patched over the veil philosophy but can't really find their place there. You say that souls incarnate in limited conditions in order to learn and evolve. But evolve in what direction? What's the point? Where does this all development lead? Furthermore the very voluntary veil in itself makes any idea about learning quite senseless. One can speak about unique kinds of experiences but to gain knowledge? Knowledge about what? In the veil philosophy this knowledge is really nothing more but the ability to say "Yes, I was there, I experienced it". But none of this really leads to actual evolution of consciousness. Accumulation of candies from the candy shop - yes - but not something which rises us on a new level of existence. When we return to the other side we're quite the same, only with a little more stories to tell. In other words it is imagined that in the disincarnate state we possess all school grades under our belt but we say "I'll now put all grades from second upwards behind a veil and accumulate some unique candies that are only interesting if I have no more than first grade understandings.

So, for the sake of clarification, if allowing the analogy that soul-beings enter this corporeal construct to become masters of limitation, so to speak, in that there's some value to be learned from that which can't be learned any other way, and also let's allow that such mastery is attainable, such that one is ready to graduate and move on from that work, rather than just staying within the limitations, can what Cleric is offering be likened to the post-grad course?

[Eugene I.]

So, for the sake of clarification, if allowing the analogy that soul-beings enter this corporeal construct to become masters of limitation, so to speak, in that there's some value to be learned from that which can't be learned any other way, and also let's allow that such mastery is attainable, such that one is ready to graduate and move on from that work, rather than just staying within the limitations, can what Cleric is offering be likened to the post-grad course?

That is the case and the view adopted in the "veil" philosophy based on NDE/reincarnation accounts and also in line with some non-dual traditions (Mahayana). The human form is a practical training "school" for the souls. Once all experiences and lessons in the "velied" mode are learned and integrated, the soul "graduates" and does not incarnate into the "veiled" forms anymore.

[Cleric K]

It's actually the other way around. There are no facts supporting Steiner's views other than Steiner's own claims of his clairvoyant knowledge (and perhaps a few of his followers sharing the same beliefs) which is highly unreliable IMO. On the other hand, there is a huge amount of NDE accounts, regression therapy and reincarnation studies all of them confirming the reason and purpose for the existence of the veil and for souls incarnations into humans. My views are based on these accounts, for me they are facts and require in-depth investigation. You claim that all those accounts are unreliable because they are all distortions based on personal interpretations, and the Steiner's view is the only one based on true facts. So, we have one account of Steiner's occult clairvoyance (and perhaps a few of his followers sharing the same beliefs) vs many thousands of all those NDE, regression therapy and reincarnation studies accounts most of them quite consistent about their reports on what they learned about the incarnation and "veil" and the overall path of the souls spiritual development.

To me the "veil" view makes perfect sense and I don't see any "hard problems" there. On the other hand, I do see explanatory gaps and problems with the Steinerian view. If the "veil" is such a problem and all is needed to solve all humanity's problems is to dissolve the veil, then why does it still exist and was put in place, why the higher-order beings could not just help us and remove it if all the structures controlling the world that we perceive is under their control? And why the souls even choose to incarnate into humans knowing that their existence will be restricted and veiled? It makes no sense to me.

Actually you have many thousands of all those NDE, regression therapy and reincarnation studies vs. millennia of spiritual evolution, which for some reason you've decided to stop follow some 500 years BC.

It's not without reason that I asked about evolution. I'm really interested in your view. How the atomic egos emerge? How they begin to incarnate? What to they learn from this? What exactly changes in these atoms as they develop? And of course - if there's such thing as evolution, where it is going?

See, Asimov may have been an atheist but in the Last Question he had a very dim Intuition of something which many spiritual people of today can't even conceive.

[Eugene I.]

You say that souls incarnate in limited conditions in order to learn and evolve. But evolve in what direction? What's the point? Where does this all development lead? Furthermore the very voluntary veil in itself makes any idea about learning quite senseless. One can speak about unique kinds of experiences but to gain knowledge? Knowledge about what?

I gave you many examples above. The learning about how to love something limited and far from perfect, and that is what real love is about. It's easy to love angels in non-corporeal form because they are prefect, it is not easy to love humans. And the only way to learn this love is to be a human and live among humans. Then, there learning about creativity and esthetics, because, as I said, the only way the outstanding esthetical forms can be created is within constraints, just like in Japanese arts. There are many other learnings in the human form, NDE accounts often talk about them. Basically, your position is a rejectionism of the Divine creation. The Earth and humans (with all those "veils") are the Divine creation, they were created with a purpose and has their value in God's view and their proper place in the overall universe of Consciousness. "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." But you call it "Divine misery" and reject the human existence with the "veil" as if it has a fundamental flaw in it, as if it's a "God's mistake". It is actually very close to Gnosticism that considers the human realm as a "prison for souls" and a creation of an evil Demiurge-god with the only salvation path for the souls is to escape from the Demiurge dominion after death into the Pleroma.

[Cleric K]

So, for the sake of clarification, if allowing the analogy that soul-beings enter this corporeal construct to become masters of limitation, so to speak, in that there's some value to be learned from that which can't be learned any other way, and also let's allow that such mastery is attainable, such that one is ready to graduate and move on from that work, rather than just staying within the limitations, can what Cleric is offering be likened to the post-grad course?

No, I'm not talking about the post-grad course. I'm talking precisely about the "some value to be learned from that which can't be learned any other way". Except that this is not simply a value. This is where evolution is misunderstood. The feeling for being an atomic ego is taken to be quite immutable - it's only the qualities and perceptions of that ego that change. This make it seem that if John has learned to be good, after death he'll go on with post-grad. The value to be learned here is not a boy scout badge that we add to our atomic ego and which will serve as a pass after death. It's about awakening to the living spiritual activity through which the ego manifests within its constraints. This means to understand that this world and the other world are one world and this becomes reality for us when we awaken to our artistic thinking flow as the actual spiritual reality (at least a small aperture of it). Then we realize that the other world should grow out of this world. We must raise in grade from this world. If we imagine that we'll be raised in grade after death, this simply means that we'll have to repeat the same class.

[Eugene I.]

It's not without reason that I asked about evolution. I'm really interested in your view. How the atomic egos emerge? How they begin to incarnate? What to they learn from this? What exactly changes in these atoms as they develop? And of course - if there's such thing as evolution, where it is going?

I gave the answer to this question here:

In the same way Consciousness puts temporary and imaginary "veils" between multiple subjective perspectives (souls) and immerse them into temporary "veiled" modes of existence in order to acquire the tele/micro-scopic perspectives in order to expand the overall scope of experience and knowledge. Later on the veils will be removed and the acquired knowledge and experience will be integrated in the all-encompassing Knowledge. So: "A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather. A time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.", a time to live under veils and a time to remove the veils.

So:
- The atomic souls/egos emerge because Consciousness continuously explores and gains knowledge about the unlimited universe of conscious states, so it needs "agents" to acquire the "microscopic" and subjective perspectives and experiences in a limited but very focused "microscope" mode. The atomic souls are never separate from Consciousness, it is essentially the same Consciousness taking a semi-autonomous trails of individuated perceptions and conscious activity
- The souls go through evolutionary cycle of many incarnations, each through its own path through the fractal, of acquiring all those knowledges and experiences in the "veiled" incarnated forms (not only humans, but in many realms and races), but eventually graduate and develop to sufficiently high level of cognition and integrate into the oneness bringing all its knowledge back into the all-encompassing knowledge of Consciousness. There are usually large groups of souls evolving through certain domains together and so they have some commonality in their paths and collective content of consciousness that shape their collective evolution, yet individual paths may deviate significantly from the collective trails. This last stage of integration is what you are describing in your Steinerian view, and it is indeed valid but only at a certain near-to-final stage of the soul's path when it is time for all the veils and individuation to dissolve.
- However, this process never ends because the universe of all possible conscious states and forms is unlimited in scope and in the number of dimensions and can never be exhausted. Therefore, Consciousness keeps creating new atomic egos/souls and new dimensions/realms sending the souls to incarnate there, learn, explore and then integrate and bring the knowledge back.
- Cosnciousness knows that such constrained and veiled existence in some of those forms and domains involves the experiences of ignorance, misery and suffering, but it still considers it worthy and it is corageous enough to still undertake it. It's the "Divine courage" as Steve calls it.

[Cleric K]

I gave you many examples above. The learning about how to love something limited and far from perfect, and that is what real love is about. It's easy to love angels in non-corporeal form because they are prefect, it is not easy to love humans. And the only way to learn this love is to be a human and live among humans. Then, there learning about creativity and esthetics, because, as I said, the only way the outstanding esthetical forms can be created is within constraints, just like in Japanese arts. There are many other learnings in the human form, NDE accounts often talk about them. Basically, your position is a rejectionism of the Divine creation. The Earth and humans (with all those "veils") are the Divine creation, they were created with a purpose and has their value in God's view and their proper place in the overall universe of Consciousness. "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." But you call it "Divine misery" and reject the human existence with the "veil" as if it has a fundamental flaw in it, as if it's a "God's mistake". It is actually very close to Gnosticism that considers the human realm as a "prison for souls" and a creation of an evil Demiurge-god with the only salvation path for the souls is to escape from the Demiurge dominion after death into the Pleroma.

God created the world indeed as very good. The Divine misery refers to the fact that humans don't understand what their place is in the good world. The misery issues when children don't realize that their Father has seeded them in order to grow. They refuse that and say that they are here to limit themselves to first grade. The breast is taken away, the shelter is taken away and the children don't realize that their life has become Divine misery simply because they don't try to understand what God intended by creating the world. The Divine misery was irony because those who refuse to understand their place in the world must delegate everything to God. And then it turns out that God has created this very good world full of pain and misery. God created men with the possibility of freedom - to choose between good and evil according to their own understanding and desire. But he didn't create the world specifically to be a war zone such that we can have certain kinds of painful experiences. Freedom is gift of God, the Divine misery is the product of our own freedom.

Anyway. I think our positions are pretty clear, so no amount of further back and forths will make them clearer

[Eugene I.]

God created the world indeed as very good. The Divine misery refers to the fact that humans don't understand what their place is in the good world. The misery issues when children don't realize that their Father has seeded them in order to grow. They refuse that and say that they are here to limit themselves to first grade. The breast is taken away, the shelter is taken away and the children don't realize that their life has become Divine misery simply because they don't try to understand what God intended by creating the world. The Divine misery was irony because those who refuse to understand their place in the world must delegate everything to God. And then it turns out that God has created this very good world full of pain and misery. God created men with the possibility of freedom - to choose between good and evil according to their own understanding and desire. But he didn't create the world specifically to be a war zone such that we can have certain kinds of painful experiences. Freedom is gift of God, the Divine misery is the product of our own freedom.

Anyway. I think our positions are pretty clear, so no amount of further back and forths will make them clearer

As a reply to this, see my post here just two posts above.

You are right, many souls indeed often abuse their freedom, get confused and lost and take wrong positions. Paradoxically, that was also part of the Divine plan to explore and know all possible states of consciousness, not only the prefect ones. But all souls at some point in their evolutionary path will eventually develop enough to overcome their distorted positions and navigate their way back to the Divine integrated oneness.

I agree that we described our positions clear enough, no further clarification is needed.

[Soul_of_Shu]

We must raise in grade from this world. If we imagine that we'll be raised in grade after death, this simply means that we'll have to repeat the same class.

Well, by likening it to the post-grad course, I was not suggesting that the P-G course be undertaken in some version after death, but is undertaken here and now in this life, once one has attained and had enough of the mastery of limitations. Then presumably, with taking the P-G course, that way one is prepared for the 'after life'.

[Soul_of_Shu]

We must raise in grade from this world. If we imagine that we'll be raised in grade after death, this simply means that we'll have to repeat the same class.

Well, by likening it to the post-grad course, I was not suggesting that the P-G course be undertaken in some version after death, but is undertaken here and now in this life, once one has attained and had enough of the mastery of limitations. Then presumably, with taking the P-G course, that way one is prepared for the 'after life'.

Further to this point above, if one arrives in the after life with only a mastery of limitations, then that would actually be a hindrance there, and why the P-G course needs to be undertaken here and now in preparation ... No?