Eugene I. wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:22 pm
Cleric, what you are saying is correct within the framework of idealism, and it's pretty trivial. If we assume that our sense perceptions are not caused by non-mental "external" world (as it is assumed in materialism or dual-aspect monism), and if we assume that Thinking/Consciousness is all there is (those are the two words pointing to the same inner reality!), we necessarily arrive to conclusion that all sense perceptions must be the result of the same thinking activity that gives rise to all our volitional phenomena (imaginations, thoughts). However, most of this process (thinking giving rise to perceptions) is not directly open to us in our direct personal conscious experience. We can only guess (by applying intuition/imagination) about how could perceptions arise from the "tree" of inter-connected ideations, and this is what you are suggesting I guess. But the fact is - these "tree" structures are veiled from us in our human form of consciousness, we can only guess about it but can never be sure if our intuitions about these structures in fact correspond to their actual structure. Many people who previously attempted to do that turned out to be wrong and took their own abstract fantasies for the reality of higher-order thinking structures (Steiner included). Still, if someone likes to do that then who we are to tell them not to? Some of these intuitions may actually turn out to be true. But as we discussed that before, there is a reason why this veil exists, There is a unique opportunity to experience the reality in a "veiled" way which would not be possible without the veil. Instead of trying to understand what we are supposed to do here in the "veiled" mode, we think the "veil" is a problem or a mistake that needs to be removed or penetrated through, we think that there is a fundamental problem with our "veiled" mode of existence and the "veil" is exactly the root of the human problems that needs to be resolved. I see it as a major flaw in Steiner's SS, he was addressing a wrong problem. IMO the real problems are much deeper (if it is even appropriate to call them "problems"), and the "veiled" existence actually helps us to resolve them rather than being a hindrance. As the Buddhists say, the human form is the best form of existence to achieve the enlightenment.
Eugene, I've already accepted your position and won't try to talk you out of it. I only would like to point out that it is based on a
belief without trying to make you abandon that belief.
You say that the veil is there for a reason and basically we shouldn't mess with it. OK, I can see very well how one may believe this. There isn't anything more that we can attain by talking. Our talks have led to the point where you've basically pressed your back against the Guardian at the Threshold and you have chosen not to turn your head around but instead wait for death to see what is behind you. And that's fine. In our age it is still not strictly necessary to gain supersensible vision of ourselves (although it's necessary to at least
understand these things).
But it's worth pointing also at the other alternative which is not as crazy as it may sound. Actually we have quite some reasons to conclude that the sorry state of humanity today is as it is precisely because of this great polarization of existence in relation to the veil.
First, as the whole Central Topic speaks about, the 'behind the veil' is not some other world out there that has significance only for disincarnate humans, angels and gods. It is where our own soul and spiritual guts belong, so to speak. QM metaphor, GR metaphor, Fourier metaphor, Tree metaphor - I won't repeat them. We are not entirely on one side of the veil as some atomic being, while another world awaits us on the other side. I've said this before - the veil is more like a surgical drape. Our sensory perceptions are on one side, while the gory details of our soul and spiritual nature are on the other. And even this is misleading because there are no geometric 'sides'. Both 'sides' are one within the other, the 'drape' is only a degree of consciousness. So by refusing to gain consciousness of our depths, we're not being humble but we simply refuse to know anything about the way our desires, sympathies, antipathies, passions, opinions, prejudices, fears and also family, national, cultural, racial, special layers, shape the flow of conscious states that we experience only as the tip of the iceberg, on the visible side of the surgical drape.
When we see it in this way, suddenly things turn around and we're not quite the humble soul which believes that it will break some rules if it tries to gain self- and world-knowledge. I repeat because it seems this is one of the greatest source of confusion - the veil doesn't separate us from other independent worlds that we have simply agreed to close our eyes for. We live on both sides of the veil
always, but we're fully awake only at the sensory-intellectual side. Every night in sleep we expand also on the other side of the drape.
By not seeking knowledge of the gory details of our soul and spiritual depths, we're actually hurting world development, in the same way that children that grow up to be spoiled and egoistic persons are hurting their families and society. In this way it is our duty to take our education in our own hands and investigate our structure and perfect it according to our high ideal.
So these are the two alternatives.
1/ We believe that on Earth it's the right thing to live entirely in the mind cone and not to seek anything about the deeper processes on the waves of which our thinking flows and actions manifest. We accept that all the lies, crimes, suffering are just how they are meant to be, that everyone has accepted to participate in exactly this form of reality and it's wrong to try and change anything. Our job is only to experience our destiny whatever it might be. Let's repeat that this world conception is based on belief based on a mixture of religious revelations, New Age teachings, NDEs and so on. The common thread in all cases is that the veil is not to be messed with. Don't touch anything, be a good person, do not harm, live your destiny, that's what you're here for.
2/ By simple self-observation we can realize that much of our thinking and behavior are shaped by subconscious sympathies, antipathies, opinions, prejudices, etc. Through direct experience we can see that it is possible to make these subconscious flows conscious and even to take conscious control over them. This is the basis of freedom. Not freedom to do whatever we want but the freedom from the implicit order which has hitherto determined the ways in which our conscious states unfold. When we do even a tiny bit of this work we quickly realize that this is the actual reason for the whole Earthly drama - people are not free. They are enslaved by the implicit flow on the back side of the drape and blindly follow their subconscious desires which continually drive them in conflict with their environment. When we realize this we understand that it is about every individual taking their education in their fully conscious hands and unveiling the implicit order such that we can become conductors of higher moral imagination and intuition.
To summarize even more:
1/ We accept our temperament, character, desires, etc., as intrinsic part of our atomic soul and assume this is what we've come to experience. We don't think even for a moment that any of this may be a crude stone that needs to be polished into diamond. We accept the sorry state of humanity as a matter of course. All of this we can support only through belief because we can never, by definition, lift the veil and verify if any of this is true.
2/ We walk a real path of self development which leads us to consciousness of the implicit order where we find the convergence of all mysteries of humanity - evolutionary development, the question of evil, the question of perfection, etc. The drape is not there as a hard boundary to test the faithful if they'll be tempted to peek before their last breath but is simply our current (individual and average collective) horizon of consciousness. It's in the course of evolution to grow in consciousness within the implicit order, so that we can realize our spiritual freedom and lift humanity from the half-human half-animal instinctive state. None of this is a matter of belief but only of clear thinking then courage and determination. Every tiny step we make in that direction is a confirmation of the reality of the path we're treading.
I repeat that this is not to convince anyone. It's just a statement of plain facts. The point of the Central Topic is to show that the possibility for gaining consciousness of the implicit order - our soul and spiritual guts - is always at hand. Everyone is free to reject this possiblity but let at least be honest and say that it's their decision not to investigate the time-depth behind the "I"/eye, instead of accusing those who speak of that time-depth of being liars, deceivers, supremacists, etc. It's enough to look at 1/ and 2/ and really see where each route leads and what interests it serves.