The Central Topic

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Federica
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Federica »

Cleric K wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 12:43 am
Thank you Cleric K,
This is very helpful, and not the least aggravating.
I also think the current times must be evolution’s kindergarten, suffice it to take a look at the state of the world and alas at some personal thinking patterns as well. Now taking time to get closer to these ideas.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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Cleric K
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Cleric K »

Eugene I. wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:01 pm The question is, if we look at it from the higher-self perspective: if the higher self already has all the higher-level powers and knowledge, then what is the purpose of its human incarnations and individuation into intellectual sovereign lover-selves? Does the higher self learn anything new or acquire any new perspectives or skills by going through this individuation-incarnation process? Does it further evolve?
To answer this question we need more comprehensive understanding of what the higher being is. If we imagine that it is practically the same as our Earthly perspective, except having access to more data and the ability to compute faster, we'll never be able to approach the facts. Few posts ago I tried to emphasize that to understand the higher strata of being we need to conceive of activity of different kind - something which is simply beyond the scope the human being's intellect, feelings and bodily will.

For example, in my post to Federica above I speak of the kind of meditation where through active concentration on a thought image, it's like we stabilize a mirror shard which gradually begins to reflect a whole new strata of being, which we completely miss when we live entirely in relations between shards (intellect). The great difficulty is that this new strata has a character which is difficult to convey. Actually the difficulty comes not from the inability to speak of it but from the fact that the intellect immediately tries to conceive everything through its own yardstick and as a result things are always seen as perceptions moved around by some abstract laws.

When the vista of the new strata begins to emerge we behold something which is well known from NDE accounts. It's what is commonly called 'life flashing before one's eyes'. This is related with my many attempts to speak of the structure of Time. The feeling for the life tableau comes from the fact that we actually glimpse at the true nature of Time. General Relativity has been secretly preparing our thinking for this in abstract way but in general today our cognition is still in the clutches of purely sequential flow. In GR we speak of worldlines through 4D spacetime, where we experience flow of 3D slices in linear time. Yet in the life panorama, consciousness really expands and grasps a 'thickness' of Time as something simultaneous. It's like we grasp as a whole a segment of our life path similarly to the way we can see a meandering road from a mountain peak. We understand that Time is not something which disappears in the past and moves towards the unknown future. Instead, Time has a living, organic structure. It's a living reality that we move through 'frame by frame'. It's not 'made of' some abstract energy, spacetime fabric or whatever - things that can exist only as abstract concepts in the intellect. Instead, we can only approach things in truthful way if we imagine that it is all reflection of meaning - that is, of thought nature.

Let's emphasize that when we behold this panorama it's not like we become somehow intellectually conscious of every little detail of our life in clear outlines. It's more like we grasp the organic whole of our time being similarly to the way we can look at a fractal. We see the higher order structure and understand very clearly how all the elements are musically embedded within it, yet it is still an unique experience to go through the elements separately.

The levels of our higher self live in different fractal levels of Time, so to speak. They grasp different levels of the organic structure of the Time Being of the Cosmos. We should immediately say that this structure is not fixed, it is not like GR's block universe, where the worldlines follow completely deterministic paths. The Time Being is under continuous metamorphosis. It is true that the higher order time patterns change much more slowly, and this is seen in the shadows of these patterns in the sensory spectrum - the motion of the planetary bodies.

The incarnational rhythm is like zooming out and in of the Time organism of the Cosmos. Time doesn't feel to flow in the same way after death. The life panorama which is only a momentary experience in NDE and surveyable reality for the scientist of the spirit, becomes the natural time scale for everybody after death and it begins to expand gradually. Needless to say, the kind of "I" that we live in in this state is quite different from our Earthly. The perspective shifts after death and our consciousness gradually expands into a higher order fractal level of Time. In our Earthly life, our 'soil' is the sensory spectrum, against which we unfold our activity. We seek things to eat, where to live, what to do, etc. These are the 'frames' of Time through which we go. After death our soil becomes something different. The Earthly frames (states of being) become 'smaller' so to speak, they become the 'atoms' of the new environment (this is highly symbolically stated). Now we live at the scale of higher order forces which are like the curvature within which the Earthly frames unfold. What are these forces? It's what we call Karma or Destiny. In our Earthly life we can engineer a riverbed such that the water flows in a specific way. After death we live in soul and spiritual forces which shape the Time structure of the Earthly riverbed. Here we live in the interference of many forces which shaped our previous life such that we incarnated in certain gender, in certain nation, that we met certain people, had certain life experiences.

Needless to say, the interests of our "I" at this level are very different from what we usually have on Earth. Instead of grooming our body and feeding it, our body is now the Cosmic Time structure of our being. This body is no longer clearly delineated in the convenient way our skin does. Our body after death is the recognition of the impact our spiritual activity has on the Cosmic Time landscape. This landscape is the interference pattern of countless beings. A being is defined not by the spatially distinct bodily island that we identify with but by the coherency of meaning behind certain perspective within the interference pattern.

Imagine someone like Bill Gates who is responsible for the existence of the Windows OS (of course there are thousands of other people involved but for simplicity let's focus on Gates only). Imagine how these ideas which were condensed into the physical world as arrangements of electric charges (the software), impacts billions of people. So many people had to accommodate concepts as 'window', 'double-click', 'blue screen', etc. After death we live precisely in these waves of impact that we had on the overall Cosmic organism. After death we don't live as a discrete spatially enclosed being among other such beings. Instead we behold an inner perspective of the Cosmic Time organism as an interference of World Karma. Then if we're Bill Gates, we recognize ourselves not as a biological body which reflects to us sensory perceptions but the inner Cosmos is our body and we recognize ourselves within the thoughts and feelings of all beings that we had impact on. If another being wants to find Bill Gates in the disincarnate state, it won't be able to do that by seeking some enclosed body. Instead, it must seek the inner perspective within the Cosmic environment from which various contributions into the World interference are seen as emanating from a coherent center of meaning. This is what it means to know a being - to resonate with its inner perspective and understand how the meaning into which it lives impresses into the Cosmic landscape.

This is what we should understand about our true being. It has no size. It doesn't take space. It's really a perspective within the Time organism of the Cosmos from whence certain interference patterns are seen as meaningfully coherent (gravitating towards the same center of meaning). We can still speak of certain domains where our influence is more clearly recognized than others, yet this doesn't mean that we're somehow enclosed in that domain and everything else is on the 'other side'.

Actually, things are principally the same even in our incarnated state. We still behold the inner Time Being of the Cosmos and we recognize the impact of our spiritual activity within it. The thing is that we're used to recognize primarily the impact of our will on our bodily perceptions. Our physical body is still an interference pattern, it's not as private as we often imagine it to be. First, it is interference of the heredity stream. Then it is interference of all the elements of nature. Then it is the interference of the activity of all our cells and organs. In all this complex we recognize our coherent center of spiritual activity in the reflections of our will, feelings and thoughts. We don't feel at all directly responsible for the structure and substance of the body. So we recognize that most of our spiritual activity finds its reflections in this bodily aperture of the Cosmic environment and that's why we identify with it. Yet we don't pay attention to the way we influence the world also with our speech, gestures, the ideas and feelings that we impress and which affect others. It is precisely in the distributed effects of these latter, that we find our reflection after death. Our body is the Cosmic interference within which we find the reflection of our spiritual activity.

At this point we also know that our life is inseparable from that of the Cosmos. There's simply no such self-contained ego which can travel somewhere and leave the world behind. If that was to happen, there would no longer be any means for that ego to reflects its existence, just like the Earthly ego would lose consciousness if all sensory organs and nervous system would malfunction. The World Karma is our body after death. There are of course many degrees of understanding of this fact. There many souls today which keep seeking their private island of reflection after death. The course of evolution is such, however, that we become more and more conscious of our true nature and our contribution to the Cosmic landscape.

To return to the question - no, our higher being doesn't have all the powers and knowledge. As a matter of fact, this higher being exists only in germinal beginnings. After death, even though we live in the higher order Time structure, we're not in the least able to shape this structure in any way we want. As a matter of fact, for most people of our age who have remained untouched by any spiritual knowledge, the sojourn through the higher worlds passes in quite instinctive way. It's like they are launched in a certain orbit, determined from their past life, make a circle through the higher Time worlds and with the help of other beings, enter once again the more detailed Time states with the goal of developing further.

I can put that into a metaphor. In our sojourn after death it can be said that we're like on ice. We're sliding through the higher order time curvatures of meaning but we can hardly get a grip. Entering the detailed granularity of time leads us into a much more frictious environment. On one hand this is a much more tedious state of existence because we need special effort at every step. Everything is sticky, everything gets tangled everywhere. This is all a result of the highly decoherent Time states which tend towards chaos. Only through sustained effort we can impress ideal order in the unfoldment of these states. But at the same time this state gives us something else - the chance to use the high friction as means to change the direction of our unfoldment.

Imagine how if we're ice skating, in order to turn we need to gradually change our velocity into an arc. But we know that figure skaters have special toe picks at the front of the blades which they can press into the ice, increasing friction immensely and change direction similarly to the way we can do with our shoes on solid ground. This is the unique character of all evolution actually. Beings coalesce from Cosmic periphery and enter more fritcious states through which they can guide their development towards higher orders, where they get a grip instead of passing helplessly as on ice. Then spiritual activity in the higher worlds shapes the Time structure of the Cosmos in greater freedom. Within these curvatures other waves of beings evolve.

In other words, the levels of our higher being exist only in germinal state now. It is our own evolutionary responsibility to unfold them such that we can begin to art the Cosmic landscape within the higher orders. Currently we need to start doing that by recognizing our shared contribution in the Karmic landscape and seek the coherent Center of Being around which to meaningfully and musically organize it.

I anticipate that it will be once again objected that it's pointless to evolve in this way because all existence will cease if we grow towards the higher fractal levels of the Time organism and instead we should continue endlessly explore the lower states. I've explained numerous times that this objection can only arise if one can't extricate their thinking from the Newtonian clock. The higher Time orders contain both the ends and the beginnings of everything. Thus as we evolve towards the 'end' of time, we actually discover at the same time where time and all life begins.
Eugene I.
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Eugene I. »

Cleric K wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 9:03 pm I anticipate that it will be once again objected that it's pointless to evolve in this way because all existence will cease if we grow towards the higher fractal levels of the Time organism and instead we should continue endlessly explore the lower states. I've explained numerous times that this objection can only arise if one can't extricate their thinking from the Newtonian clock. The higher Time orders contain both the ends and the beginnings of everything. Thus as we evolve towards the 'end' of time, we actually discover at the same time where time and all life begins.
Cleric, most of what you said is in agreement with numerous NDE accounts, including the perception of time in the discarnate state. I would just add a few points:
- the developmental paths are not deterministically shaped by Karma, but rather are an interplay of Karmic curvatures and the free will and creativity of conscious beings on all levels.
- the exploration and evolution goes on and expands on all levels, not only "endlessly on the lower states", as well as not only necessarily towards the higher levels. There are ascending and descending, integrating and dissociating paths each having their role so that the life of the Cosmos is wholistic where all levels are equally important.

But also, as always, you are voicing here the "block universe" vision where the individuated conscious beings are travelling though the time-slices along their paths in the ever-timelessly-existing State of All States (where the end and the beginning of everything is there timelessly). While I think it's a wonderful Platonic idea to contemplate on, it is not necessarily true. And, as I said before, personally for me this would be a cause of a meaning crisis as much as materialism would be, because I don't see a point or a meaning of wandering around in a timelessly-existing labyrinth of the State of All States, whether it continues forever or whether it ends at the "end of the individual time".
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Cleric K
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Cleric K »

Eugene I. wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 10:00 pm - the developmental paths are not deterministically shaped by Karma, but rather are an interplay of Karmic curvatures and the free will and creativity of conscious beings on all levels.
Yes, that's why I wrote:
Cleric K wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 9:03 pm We should immediately say that this structure is not fixed, it is not like GR's block universe, where the worldlines follow completely deterministic paths. The Time Being is under continuous metamorphosis. It is true that the higher order time patterns change much more slowly, and this is seen in the shadows of these patterns in the sensory spectrum - the motion of the planetary bodies.


Eugene I. wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 10:00 pm - the exploration and evolution goes on and expands on all levels, not only "endlessly on the lower states", as well as not only necessarily towards the higher levels. There are ascending and descending, integrating and dissociating paths each having their role so that the life of the Cosmos is wholistic where all levels are equally important.
Yes but we should also realize that these ascends and descends are structured within nested rhythms. It's not like the whole field of reality is a random soup of ascends and descends. The ancient Hindus were well aware of these things. They knew of the rhythmic unfoldment. The periods of manifestations were called Manvantara while the period where manifestation recedes in sleep-like seed condition is called Pralaya.

These rhythmic patterns are discernable on all levels. As an analogy, we know how through the semester the students have some wiggle room. They may decide to give lower priority to studying and do something else. But as the time of exams comes closer, all their efforts begin to funnel towards that point.

Similarly, in our age it seems the Cosmic stage is a completely free enterprise. Whoever wants can ascend, whoever wants can descend. Yet this is because there's wiggle room. Spiritual knowledge doesn't aim to limit our freedom but only to lead us to true understanding of these grand Cosmic rhythms. In this way we can plan ahead and begin to orient our activities and interests such that towards the convergence, we wouldn't be caught by surprise. For example, today it becomes progressively more important to gain deeper insight into the true nature of reality and how we're placed with our spiritual activity within it. Even though people today are fascinated with technological progress and imagine that we're yet to conquer the heavens, these materialistic conceptions already lead into decadence. If these things are not understood, in spite of high technologies, the Earthly dreamscape will become more and more nightmarish. The reason is that rhythmic evolution leads us towards the unfoldment of new forms of consciousness and new understanding of reality. Refusing to acknowledge this, we're like children who disregard the fact that they are growing up and insist on keeping their favorite shoes. As the feet grow they begin to hurt and be deformed. This is the state of man today.
Eugene I. wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 10:00 pm But also, as always, you are voicing here the "block universe" vision where the individuated conscious beings are travelling though the time-slices along their paths in the ever-timelessly-existing State of All States (where the end and the beginning of everything is there timelessly). While I think it's a wonderful Platonic idea to contemplate on, it is not necessarily true. And, as I said before, personally for me this would be a cause of a meaning crisis as much as materialism would be, because I don't see a point or a meaning of wandering around in a timelessly-existing labyrinth of the State of All States, whether it continues forever or whether it ends at the "end of the individual time".
I'm not sure there's any point to try and explain this anymore. This objection is like saying that sculpture carving is pointless art because the block of stone already contains all conceivable statues, so we don't discover anything new.

It seems you're strongly opposed to the idea of structured potential because you keep imagining it as a constraint for your consciousness which otherwise exists outside that potential.

The idea is actually very simple. It's only to point attention the fact that our states of being as experienced through time are lawfully related with past, future and even parallel states. And further, that it is always possible in the course of evolution to raise and encompass the landscape of potential that we've been exploring so far. This is the main point. It's not to make it look there's nothing new under the sun but about the possibility for consciousness to expand and encompass time in holistic manner.

You insist that our stream of being is being continuously fed with new states which are brand new creation, and we leave through the exhaust the past states. You seem to rebel against the possibility that the vicinity of potential states is actually structured. And this is so even from the most secular perspective. It's unlikely that your next state of being will be on Mars or in another body, or in another time. So there certainly is certain structured potential for what is possible to become our next state of being. Furthermore you yourself agree that Karma is precisely the name for that structured potential, which doesn't deterministically force our next state but nevertheless modulates the palette of possibilities.

How do you reconcile your understanding of Karma with your unwillingness to admit that reality has not only spatial but also temporal structure? How exactly Karma operates in your view? What are the World mechanics which lead you to meet certain person as ordained by destiny, for example? And most importantly - do you conceive that evolution of consciousness leads into perception of these Karmic forces? Or we're forever doomed to be blindly fed the potential for our next states by mysterious forces?
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Eugene I. »

Cleric K wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 11:26 am How do you reconcile your understanding of Karma with your unwillingness to admit that reality has not only spatial but also temporal structure? How exactly Karma operates in your view? What are the World mechanics which lead you to meet certain person as ordained by destiny, for example? And most importantly - do you conceive that evolution of consciousness leads into perception of these Karmic forces? Or we're forever doomed to be blindly fed the potential for our next states by mysterious forces?
There are definitely Karmic forces and Cosmic rhythms that shape the developmental paths, but they are frameworks rather than deterministic structures. Without these structures there would be complete chaos. However, if only these structures would pre-destine all the paths, there would be no room for freedom and creativity. In reality there is a balance between the aspect of structures/forces/rhythms and the aspect of indeterministic freedom and creativity, and there is a continuous interplay between them. It's the structures that shape the directions of development and creativity, yet it is the creativity that changes and creates the structures/forces/rhythms in new ways that could not be predicted by simply following the curvatures. It's like a butterfly effect where tiny creative breakthroughs not fully determined by the pre-existing conditions/forces cause fundamental changes in the structures and in the directions of development and lead to creation of entirely new structures. This creativity aspect is what makes this whole process so meaningful and interesting. Yet, you are right, this creativity aspect cannot fully unfold without deeper knowledge of the Karmic forces (which is the "yes" answer to your question "do you conceive that evolution of consciousness leads into perception of these Karmic forces")

Here is an example. Composing music in Baroque period was usually a very structured work, the rules of harmony and typical melodic and harmonic patterns were pretty well defined. Yet, if we take a masterpiece like Bach's Chaconne for example, it's a piece of music with exceptionally deep musical meaning and nontrivial melodic/harmonic fabric following the new never-explored-before musical curvatures of its own, even though it still followed the general structures of the Baroque rules of harmony. It's not just another version of good melodic/harmonic Baroque pattern among all similar others, but it's a breakthrough in music that could have never been predicted or derived by simply following and routinely applying the rules of Baroque harmony. Still, Bach mastered his skills in studying all the potentials and structures of the Baroque music, and without that knowledge and mastery he could not compose his masterpieces.
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Re: The Central Topic

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Eugene I. wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 5:37 pm
Cleric K wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 11:26 am How do you reconcile your understanding of Karma with your unwillingness to admit that reality has not only spatial but also temporal structure? How exactly Karma operates in your view? What are the World mechanics which lead you to meet certain person as ordained by destiny, for example? And most importantly - do you conceive that evolution of consciousness leads into perception of these Karmic forces? Or we're forever doomed to be blindly fed the potential for our next states by mysterious forces?
There are definitely Karmic forces and Cosmic rhythms that shape the developmental paths, but they are frameworks rather than deterministic structures. Without these structures there would be complete chaos. However, if only these structures would pre-destine all the paths, there would be no room for freedom and creativity. In reality there is a balance between the aspect of structures/forces/rhythms and the aspect of indeterministic freedom and creativity, and there is a continuous interplay between them. It's the structures that shape the directions of development and creativity, yet it is the creativity that changes and creates the structures/forces/rhythms in new ways that could not be predicted by simply following the curvatures. It's like a butterfly effect where tiny creative breakthroughs not fully determined by the pre-existing conditions/forces cause fundamental changes in the structures and in the directions of development and lead to creation of entirely new structures. This creativity aspect is what makes this whole process so meaningful and interesting. Yet, you are right, this creativity aspect cannot fully unfold without deeper knowledge of the Karmic forces (which is the "yes" answer to your question "do you conceive that evolution of consciousness leads into perception of these Karmic forces")

Here is an example. Composing music in Baroque period was usually a very structured work, the rules of harmony and typical melodic and harmonic patterns were pretty well defined. Yet, if we take a masterpiece like Bach's Chaconne for example, it's a piece of music with exceptionally deep musical meaning and nontrivial melodic/harmonic fabric following the new never-explored-before musical curvatures of its own, even though it still followed the general structures of the Baroque rules of harmony. It's not just another version of good melodic/harmonic Baroque pattern among all similar others, but it's a breakthrough in music that could have never been predicted or derived by simply following and routinely applying the rules of Baroque harmony. Still, Bach mastered his skills in studying all the potentials and structures of the Baroque music, and without that knowledge and mastery he could not compose his masterpieces.
Eugene,

Can you give us a specific example as it relates to the average individual's ideational activity and the structured constraints on it? For ex., do Karmic sympathies structure that activity and, if so, does this include sympathies for blood relatives, for nation/culture, for race, for species? What about soul temperaments - Sanguine, Phlegmatic, Choleric, and Melancholic?

Or do these generally not have a big impact in your view? Perhaps you can use your own as an example.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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