The Central Topic

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Cleric K
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The Central Topic

Post by Cleric K »

Eugene I. wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:39 am Well, the only anthroposophist I met so far is Cleric and Ashvin, and I can see that they are quite dogmatic and I haven't seen them so far admitting that they or Steiner are or have ever been wrong in anything.
As I've stated elsewhere, I have no affiliations with the anthroposophical society. Before I knew anything about Steiner, through various life circumstances I've already had encountered certain inner direction within consciousness for which one can ask in the fullest sense "How deep the rabbit hole goes". I found in the works of spiritual science what spoke precisely about what I had encountered in very fragmentary way.

I won't speak here of what is found down the rabbit hole. I just want to speak about the direction where the hole is to be found.

Almost all my posts here have always been focused on one single topic. Those who are able to grasp these things will see that I've been talking about the same thing from many different angles. I don't do that because I pretend to be the first to know of such things but because I realize the urgency of the times and how time slips through our fingers while we serve centuries old mental habits. Let me make one more attempt to point attention to that central theme.

Ever since ancient Greece, humanity entered the epoch of its evolution where the world content was seen not only as perceptions imbued with instinctive spiritual meaning (read spirits/gods behind phenomena) but was seen more and more through the prism of thoughts. It is as if meaning of the religious and mythological images began to decohere, to break down into thought-fragments. Now man began to investigate the relations of these fragments of meaning in their own right, which in the most general sense we can call logic. Where the ancients saw spirits within phenomena, modern man sees thoughts - laws of nature. The spirits gradually mineralized into thought-laws of nature. This is not some esoteric speculation, it's the natural conclusion of history and anthropology. I'm not even arguing if the spirits were real or not. It's the simple conclusion that the intellect gradually emerged from the spirits-imbued nature to the nature imbued with thoughts - thoughts which reflect the supposed laws of nature.

Especially in the last 500 years the intellect (the "I" operating in the thought-fragments) really picked up speed. Today it is quite obvious for those who have a unprejudiced eye for these things, that the intellect has already exhausted its headroom. We should understand this rightly. Consider this image:

Image

This is something to which every modern person should have no problem to relate. Within the intellectual state we feel more or less as mind-container and within this container we experience the thoughts, perceptions, essentially - the contents of consciousness. We feel certain singularity within this consciousness which is the reason we can speak of an "I" or ego. Essentially all conscious phenomena are relatable to that singularity. Different people can give different names to that singularity. For some it's simply the human ego, for others its transpersonal One Consciousness but in all cases there's this one container of experience. This is symbolized on the figure as the apex of the cone. It's the vantage point which embraces conscious phenomena. We feel this apex as the top-level observation tower below which everything happens - everything which we're conscious of happens before the eye of consciousness. What's outside this consciousness cone (the thing-in-itself) is another story.

Practically all branches of modern human life utilize this mode of cognition which really consists of ordering thoughts in logical arrangements. Ever since the exploration of propositional logic, formal systems, universal computation (Turing machines, Lambda calculus, etc.) and things like that, the intellect has reached it's grounds so to speak. From this point onwards anything that may be discovered can be immediately shown to be equivalent to some of the axiomatic systems of thinking. For this reason, as far as the logical grounds of the intellect are concerned, the ceiling has been hit, so to speak. From now on it's all about refinement and filtration of the correct intellectual thoughts which supposedly should represent the laws of Nature. The state of philosophy is even more sorry because it is completely lost in abstractions which can hardly be related to anything of practical significance.

Ever since I began writing here I tried to point attention to one thing only - a direction, a degree of freedom, in which our thinking can move into. It can be illustrated thus:

Image

The whole point is that instead of feeling as a top-level authority in the mind and all thought-fragments to be below us (in front our our mind's eye), we can understand our thinking activity to be in the middle and to be embedded within processes in which it flows. I used many different metaphors to speak of the same thing: We can say that there's a wave function of meaning within which our thoughts decohere (QM metaphor). It can be said that there's curvature of meaning within the 'geodesics' of which the thought-fragments flow (GR metaphor). It can be said that there's frequency domain of meaning and space domain of thought-perceptions (Fourier metaphor). All of these have one single goal: to point attention to this cognitive time-flow within which our thoughts are perceived.

Now here comes the hardest part. Today's thinking simply doesn't want to give up its top-authority perspective. Everything described in the paragraph above, for most people is conceived as thought-fragments entirely in the way of the first figure. All those metaphors, curvature of meaning, wave function, flow and so on, remain completely abstract thought-fragments within the top-down perspective of the mind.

In order for these metaphors to be seen as speaking of something real, we must try to enter livingly into them. Not to fantasize some abstract thinking flow forces (which effectively will be again figure 1) but to try and feel our own thinking and the way it flows. This is the absolutely critical point.

The whole idea is actually extremely simple. All these scientific metaphors actually make it look much more complicated that it really is. Yet we need some words to point attention. All our scientific and philosophical thinking in the last 500 years has been entirely as in figure 1. We have been the mind at the apex point and we've been trying to build arrangement of thoughts for which to say "This is the truth, this is what reality is and how it operates". Clearly the thoughts themselves are not the reality itself, they are only mental model of it. When we think about the wave function in QM, we imagine it through thought-fragments. We imagine the wave and how it decoheres into particles. What figure 2 represents is a change of perspective. Instead of imagining both the wave and its particles within the mind cone, we try to observe our thoughts as the actual particles that decohere. Not to fantasize them as particles or waves but simply to be conscious of them in the way they are. Then we can start to investigate how these thoughts come to be what they are. Not through theorizing in the cone but by in vivo investigation. For example, everyone in the other thread about Steiner, shared their opinions. The same can be tried by observing closely how the words we form are being shaped. How our ideas, sympathies, antipathies, beliefs, all serve as the living time-context within which our thinking forms the thoughts. Let's say that Eugene didn't feel antipathy towards SS. Then he would have expressed different thoughts. So in a way the feeling of antipathy serves as a wave function, or curvature of meaning within which our thoughts glide. The point is that we shouldn't work with abstract models in the mind-cone but make the living process of thoughtful becoming, the actual World Process which science tries to investigate.

The critical thing to realize is that this way of looking on the World Process requires very specific alteration in our scientific attitude. We can no longer pretend that we're above all reality and we can fit it in our thought-fragments. On the contrary, we must realize our thinking as if being midway between that which is below us, which we can grasp as perceptions (including thought-perceptions) and that which is above or behind our mind, which we grasp as meaning, which elucidates the perceptions. This meaning is not abstract but concrete. When we realize that we're thinking about something we dislike, our antipathy is something completely concrete. Our thoughts are flowing within the guides of it. So when we become conscious of this fact we don't simply have some psychological theory but we have meaningful observation. The meaning of this observation in itself elucidates what the connection between our thoughts and the feeling of antipathy is. Our thought about the feeling is below us but we can't say that while our thinking process is influenced by the antipathy, it is above it. We're submerged in it, it pulls us around. It is in this sense that we should realize that there are processes of which we can be conscious but which nevertheless are larger than us. We can't simply think them on and off, but instead our thinking flows in them. This ability to recognize both what is below us and also that within which we flow, is the hallmark of the scientific attitude in question. Please try to feel how one-sided all our scientific and philosophical endeavors have been in this respect. Everything - our inner life or the Cosmos - become only thought-tokens in our mind cone and we think about them from the top-down perspective.

Everything that I've tried to write about, practically has this single goal in mind. To bring to attention the extreme one-sidedness of the modern intellectual consciousness. This is the dualism that Ashvin speaks about - we recede quietly at the apex which turns into our blind spot and from there, as some God-like authority we rearrange our mental representations. This one-sidedness is overcome when we awaken to the fact that with our thinking we're inserted midway in the spectrum of reality. That not only we can scientifically work with mental content but we can be fully conscious also of the living time-context within which our thinking unfolds. The most important characteristic of this time-context is that it is concrete. It's not about fantasizing some hypothetical mind and its hypothetical time-context. All of this snaps back to the old habits and we arrange thoughts in the mind cone. Instead, we must seek our current time-context. This means that we must make our current thinking the object of investigation. This is the current World Process and not some imagined mental representation of supposed world process.

It's really very simple. Even a materialist would agree that our thinking brain is part of the World Process. Of course he imagines that this process somehow produces pixels of consciousness which can be at most representations of that very process. But undoubtedly we can make this thinking world process the object of itself. It is a completely arbitrary assumption that what we thus experience is only a representation of the real world process. For what we know, the world process that we experience in thinking is the only process that we ever know. So if this is the world process to which we have access, it's completely arbitrary decision to consider as significant only the mental representations below us and disregard the living time-context, which we can also be conscious of, even though through polar scientific attitude.

Clearly all this is not very easy in practice. One part of the difficulty is that average man of today is barely in control of his thoughts. Thoughts just seem to stream out as torrents, decohering from the wave function in whatever way it may be. It really requires some effort in concentration if we are to think and at the same time observe how thoughts are formed.

The second part is more deeper and was already mentioned above - it is our feeling life. Practically, people think what attracts them. We can be attracted both by pleasurable things (we think about things which we like) or by things that don't give us peace - fears, insults, etc.

These factors produce several levels (mis)understanding.
1/ Some people don't even understand what they are being spoken of. They hear only words and can't comprehend that these words refer to something real, something experiential. The words remain as purely abstract floating fragments, completely disconnected from reality (entirely figure 1).
2/ Others partially understand what is being spoken of but shudder in horror when they realize what this direction implies. It practically threatens to bring to light all that which the person has considered holy of holies - the most intimate and secret parts of the psyche - the kitchen were our thoughts are being cooked in the flames of desires. After this, thinking quickly reverts to its top-down authoritarian mentality in order to avoid confronting its gory details.
3/ Some understand that this inner depth is there but assume that it can be approached only through (aesthetic) feeling. This saves the thinking "I" from the disturbing possibility that the gory depths can be experienced fully consciously as meaningful dynamics.
4/ In other cases the depths are followed up to an extent but ultimately hit a brick wall. This wall is the moment when thinking which has become used to identify with the bodily perspective of a single human being, has to step beyond that perspective. Materialism simply declared that this is impossible because the depth can't go beyond the physical brain. Idealists postulate their own versions of the brick wall - dissociation boundaries, opaque bubbles of consciousness, etc.

My hope here is to pinpoint with maximum precision something fundamental. Note that none of this requires anything preconceived. It doesn't require spiritual science nor Steiner, nor anything else. It requires only our unprejudiced living thinking. The goal is elucidate the one-sided mental tendency which has hegemonized intellectual life in the past several centuries.

I'm interested first and foremost to hear if everyone understands what is here being talked about. Not if it's agreed with but simply if it is clearly understood about what direction I'm talking of. All talks that involve anything related to spiritual science are bound to succumb into chaos unless this central point is understood. I repeat that this point can be understood completely independently of any philosophical school. It's a matter of direct observation of our thinking process, of which every healthy mind is capable of.
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

The grokking is getting there Cleric, however gradual it may be, as you find clearer ways to articulate what is surely very challenging to express, well beyond my skills in that regard, they being more poetic than noetic. And I definitely appreciate and relate to how, like myself, you've taken from other insightful explorers of the Psyche whatever most deeply resonated in tune with your own insights and explorations, and carried that forward, while leaving the rest that didn't serve you well behind, as you continue to evermore explore and evolve your own insights, according to your tailor-made process, the efficacy of which can be evaluated according the adage that, "by their fruits you shall know them." So again, I'm grateful for those fruits you are freely offering here🙏
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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AshvinP
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:04 pm The grokking is getting there Cleric, however gradual it may be, as you find clearer ways to articulate what is surely very challenging to express, well beyond my skills in that regard, they being more poetic than noetic. And I definitely appreciate and relate to how, like myself, you've taken from other insightful explorers of the Psyche whatever most deeply resonated in tune with your own insights and explorations, and carried that forward, while leaving the rest that didn't serve you well behind, as you continue to evermore explore and evolve your own insights, according to your tailor-made process, the efficacy of which can be evaluated according the adage that, "by their fruits you shall know them." So again, I'm grateful for those fruits you are freely offering here🙏

Amen!

There is nothing more encouraging, inspiring, and enlivening than gratitude in my concrete experience, and Cleric's posts offer me endless opportunities to be grateful for being here as well 🙏

I have many thoughts but really they would only muddle up what was so clearly articulated above.

I hope some people actually find their way to this thread...
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Martin_ »

I believe I grok it. Although I might be hitting the brick wall in 4/. I recognize the topology you speak of from within myself, and given that, with a slight shift of perception, which feels a bit like widening the aperture of a camera (it was there all the time, but now it's more intense) , i do get a sense of "what's behind/above me". To which extent i'm actuallty *moving* in that direction is hard to tell though.
"I don't understand." /Unknown
Shajan624
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Shajan624 »

Cleric K wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:20 pm Everything that I've tried to write about, practically has this single goal in mind. To bring to attention the extreme one-sidedness of the modern intellectual consciousness.
Cleric,

I can understand the problem you address and the urgency of doing so. But I can’t see how metaphorical descriptions can help to ‘pinpoint with maximum precision something fundamental’.
Jim Cross
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Jim Cross »

Cleric,

For what it's worth I have no clue what you are talking about. Let me dissect it one little section of what you wrote:
Ever since ancient Greece, humanity entered the epoch of its evolution where the world content was seen not only as perceptions imbued with instinctive spiritual meaning (read spirits/gods behind phenomena) but was seen more and more through the prism of thoughts. It is as if meaning of the religious and mythological images began to decohere, to break down into thought-fragments. Now man began to investigate the relations of these fragments of meaning in their own right, which in the most general sense we can call logic. Where the ancients saw spirits within phenomena, modern man sees thoughts - laws of nature. The spirits gradually mineralized into thought-laws of nature.
What is "world content"?

What is "instinctive spiritual meaning"? I don't see anything spiritual about instinct. I don't see anything instinctive about meaning.

And "religious and mythological images break down into thought-fragments"? Huh.

"Mineralized spirits"?

Combining words with hyphens and inventing novel phrases is not normally an indication of profundity. In my experience, it usually indicates the person really doesn't have a clue what they are trying to say. Or that what they are trying to say is commonplace and trivial so they need to dress it up with language novelty.

More broadly (and just from the quoted passage), what exactly is the change you are talking about and what is your evidence for it? You cite nothing.

You begin with "ever since ancient Greece". Does that include the Romans, Europeans in the Middle Ages, the indigenous all over the world, China, Japan, India? Are you making some sweeping assertion about all of those civilizations and cultures? Did the spirits for all of them become mineralized into thought-laws? Did the ancient Greeks lack thought-laws and logic?
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Cleric K
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Cleric K »

Martin_ wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:51 pm I believe I grok it. Although I might be hitting the brick wall in 4/. I recognize the topology you speak of from within myself, and given that, with a slight shift of perception, which feels a bit like widening the aperture of a camera (it was there all the time, but now it's more intense) , i do get a sense of "what's behind/above me". To which extent i'm actuallty *moving* in that direction is hard to tell though.
Martin, thank you for participation. The 'movement' already belongs to even further intensification of the cognitive experience. Your experience actually serves as a great example. As said, the point of this thread is not to reveal details about the structure of the inner topology. The goal here is to simply point attention to the direction. Our greatest gain would be if after a glimpse as yours, we can ask ourselves with the utmost seriousness: "If through specific inner effort I could bring to light (intensify) something which is always there but normally simply flows dimly merged with the background, then how many more such processes which shape my normal conscious life, may there be and which await their intensification and lifting into the light of consciousness?"

Hitting the brick wall at 4/ is completely normal. In fact, it is not advisable that we try stubbornly to break through. All of these things are so concrete that there are words for them but it's not the goal of this thread to give lessons in Initiation. The most valuable thing at this point is that such shift of perspective is simply felt through thinking (yes, felt through thinking).
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Cleric K
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Cleric K »

Shajan624 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:02 pm
Cleric K wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:20 pm Everything that I've tried to write about, practically has this single goal in mind. To bring to attention the extreme one-sidedness of the modern intellectual consciousness.
Cleric,

I can understand the problem you address and the urgency of doing so. But I can’t see how metaphorical descriptions can help to ‘pinpoint with maximum precision something fundamental’.
Hi Shajan,

this is a great question! The answer will become clear to you when you try to wrestle for a while with observation of your own thinking. You'll very quickly convince yourself that our normal mode of intellectual cognition is of not much use there. Normally our thinking is split into the so called object and subject. The subject is our perspective at the apex of the pyramid, the object is the perceptions that we think about. When we're engaged into pure thinking (like mathematics) then the object is our own thought-perceptions. Try to multiply 13x17 in your mind and pay attention that you're doing something. You're using your thinking. The exact way we experience these thoughts vary from person to person. Some do the math using verbal words, others imagine visually what they would otherwise write on paper and so on. In any case, our thoughts embodying the mathematical concepts, are the object of thinking.

If you try to perform the multiplication while at the same time observing exactly what you're doing in your mind you'll see that it's difficult. It is as if you are continually splitting against yourself. One part tries to observe the multiplication process but as soon as you do that, the multiplication ceases. On the other hand, when you're fully engaged with the multiplication it's difficult to be fully conscious (meta reflective) of what exactly you're doing with your thinking.

Such is the nature of thinking that when it (the subject) becomes its own object, the normal mental habits are of no use. Normal thinking depends on the comfortable separation between thinking and the object. When we try to grasp our thinking with the habits we employ for the sensory world, we feel like a dog chasing its tail. We try to perceive our thinking but if we say "there, this is my thinking process in front of me" then we forget that we're already secretly thinking something else, namely, the quoted sentence. The thinking that we have "in front of me" is already only a memory image of my thinking from a split second ago. My current thinking is the one which contemplates the memory image.

It's really valuable to wrestle for a while with observations like these, just to get a feel for how slippery the whole thing is. Yet we can perfectly well understand all this. For example when we say "I feel like a dog chasing its tail" we use a metaphor. But this metaphor points to something completely concrete. We use a metaphor because we can't use our ordinary mental habits, as we saw. We can't speak about our thinking in the way we speak about EM fields and Maxwell's equations because then our thinking would be split - the thinking equations that we think about are not the same thinking which thinks them in real time. Nevertheless, we can be completely conscious of this peculiar way in which thinking turns onto itself and we can even express that in images and metaphors, such as a dog chasing its tail.

I hope this answers your question why we're forced to use images and metaphors - simply because the thinking comfortably split into a subject and object, doesn't help us to grasp the real time process. The important thing is that these images and metaphors don't imply that we're talking about something vague and indefinite (which I suppose was the motivation for your question - how can we be precise if we use metaphors?) Quite the contrary - we experience this process with perfect clarity and for those who make the effort to experience the same process themselves, like Martin did above, then the metaphor of inner topology, for example, is no longer abstract but speaks of an actual inner experience (even though the details are worked out only gradually).
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Cleric K
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Cleric K »

Jim Cross wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:40 pm Cleric,

For what it's worth I have no clue what you are talking about. Let me dissect it one little section of what you wrote:
Ever since ancient Greece, humanity entered the epoch of its evolution where the world content was seen not only as perceptions imbued with instinctive spiritual meaning (read spirits/gods behind phenomena) but was seen more and more through the prism of thoughts. It is as if meaning of the religious and mythological images began to decohere, to break down into thought-fragments. Now man began to investigate the relations of these fragments of meaning in their own right, which in the most general sense we can call logic. Where the ancients saw spirits within phenomena, modern man sees thoughts - laws of nature. The spirits gradually mineralized into thought-laws of nature.
What is "world content"?

What is "instinctive spiritual meaning"? I don't see anything spiritual about instinct. I don't see anything instinctive about meaning.

And "religious and mythological images break down into thought-fragments"? Huh.

"Mineralized spirits"?

Combining words with hyphens and inventing novel phrases is not normally an indication of profundity. In my experience, it usually indicates the person really doesn't have a clue what they are trying to say. Or that what they are trying to say is commonplace and trivial so they need to dress it up with language novelty.

More broadly (and just from the quoted passage), what exactly is the change you are talking about and what is your evidence for it? You cite nothing.

You begin with "ever since ancient Greece". Does that include the Romans, Europeans in the Middle Ages, the indigenous all over the world, China, Japan, India? Are you making some sweeping assertion about all of those civilizations and cultures? Did the spirits for all of them become mineralized into thought-laws? Did the ancient Greeks lack thought-laws and logic?
Jim,
world content refers to the totality of our conscious experience before we have analyzed it with thinking. It is the given perceptual experience - colors, sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, willing, thoughts, etc. All of this confronts as an amalgamation of conscious experience. If we look without prejudice we'll have to admit that in themselves, the perceptual elements don't tell anything about inner or outer world, about subject and object, consciousness and energy, etc. Today people take it for granted that through our visual perceptions we're seeing the external world but as far as the given is concerned, we experience colors and shapes. We experience quite the same while we dream - can we say that our dream imagery points to an external world? So we see that it is the meaning that we connect to the perceptions through thinking which make them look like mere dream in one case or external reality in the other.

My point here is not argue about the origins of our waking and dreaming experience but only to point attention to the fact that the perceptual content (not only sensory but feelings, thoughts, will) is not demarcated in some special way in the given. The demarcation comes when we begin to think about conscious phenomena. Then we learn to put sensory perceptions in the bucket labeled 'external world', and we put feelings, thoughts and will into the bucket 'subjective conscious life'. But as far as our immediate experience is concerned, both feelings and colors happen in the same conscious space.

So 'world content' is this totality of conscious phenomena which meets us as something given, and on which thinking works upon, organizes, analyzes, categorizes, etc.

The remaining part of your post contains many questions but it will be difficult for me to address them one by one because we need to equalize the potentials first. To do that, it can be useful if you provide your own understanding of how consciousness has evolved through the millennia. I guess you recognize that the farther back we go in history, the more weird everything becomes. Spiritual conceptions are completely universal the farther back we go. Instead of me answering the questions, it will be more effective if you try to submerge yourselves as far as possible in these ancients states of consciousness. Do you think that they were practically the same as today? Do you imagine that people were seeing gravity, forces, weights, temperatures, pressures but couldn't grasp the exact laws with their intellect and that's why they overlaid everything with imaginary supernatural explanations? Or the state of consciousness was really dream-like and they felt to be flowing within these spiritual forces? Again - it doesn't even matter at this point if the forces were real or only imaginary. The question is to feel how consciousness felt for these people. From that point you can trace the development of thinking, the gradual crystallization of concepts which much later truly made it that the world looked like masses, forces, pressure, etc., instead of spiritual forces.

But anyway. This first paragraph of my post was only meant as historical context. Even if you ignore how exactly we have reached the modern type of consciousness (the cone), all the remaining part of the post can be thought about completely independently of the historical details.
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Jim Cross »

To do that, it can be useful if you provide your own understanding of how consciousness has evolved through the millennia. I guess you recognize that the farther back we go in history, the more weird everything becomes. Spiritual conceptions are completely universal the farther back we go. Instead of me answering the questions, it will be more effective if you try to submerge yourselves as far as possible in these ancients states of consciousness.
Submerge myself in ancient states of consciousness?

This would presuppose that the ancient states are different from the current states. We have no way to know that. It would then presuppose that we would have a way in our current state of consciousness to access reliably the ancient states.

What would the ancient state be like and how would it be different from a current state? If you're suggesting ancient states lacked thinking (or maybe Thinking), then you need to make some arguments to justify that view. You may Think you can differentiate raw perceptual input from thinking but I think you are completely wrong on that point.
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