The Central Topic

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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Cleric K wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:35 pm
Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:38 pm So here's another dreamtime revelation to deconstruct ... One is never not 'dead'. Being 'dead' is the home base of one's ever-present transcorporeal soul-being. Yet, upon its donning of the bodily costume while stepping within the corporeal stage/construct, and with the tightly-fitting, exclusive identification with the persona mask/costume and construct, it falls under the 'maya' spell and its 'veil', and lives a discrete, and possibly discreet, life, while its transcorporeal life aspect is seemingly occluded and ignored, with all the desperate fear, confusion and angst that entails. You lurking backstage Cleric? :shock:
You're hitting even more Central Topic here, Dana :)
Good to know, as I avoid the temptation of joining in the spin-off discussion within the discussion ;)
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Jim Cross
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Jim Cross »

Eugene I. wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:15 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:00 pm Eugene,

You can argue there is no "real" hammer but I'd bet that neither you or anybody else here will actually do the second part of the exercise. So you can argue in the abstract there is no "real" hammer yet in pragmatic and practical terms you will treat the "real" hammer differently from the imagined one. And that is my point. That difference is what is meant by "matter". Speaking pragmatically, that is.

If you want to adopt a pure idealist position, then explain why you treat the "real" hammer differently. Explain the hardness and heaviness of existence.
Speaking pragmatically, I will just not intentionally attempt any actions that will cause any perceptions of pain. Whether or not there is a "real hammer" causing these sense perceptions of pain is actually practically irrelevant.
Sounds like "actually practically" you are agreeing with me. Or almost at least.

But, of course, it goes far beyond pain or no pain, beyond the immediate perception of the hammer hitting the hand. The "real" hammer can cause "real" damage to your hand that may last after the pain and the hammer are gone. This imagined hammer and the dream hammer do not cause "real" damage. The imagined and dream hammer are similar to the "real" one but they lack the matter aspect.

Can you address the hard problem of idealism of explaining why it is this way?
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Jim Cross wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:33 pm
Eugene I. wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:15 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:00 pm Eugene,

You can argue there is no "real" hammer but I'd bet that neither you or anybody else here will actually do the second part of the exercise. So you can argue in the abstract there is no "real" hammer yet in pragmatic and practical terms you will treat the "real" hammer differently from the imagined one. And that is my point. That difference is what is meant by "matter". Speaking pragmatically, that is.

If you want to adopt a pure idealist position, then explain why you treat the "real" hammer differently. Explain the hardness and heaviness of existence.
Speaking pragmatically, I will just not intentionally attempt any actions that will cause any perceptions of pain. Whether or not there is a "real hammer" causing these sense perceptions of pain is actually practically irrelevant.
Sounds like "actually practically" you are agreeing with me. Or almost at least.

But, of course, it goes far beyond pain or no pain, beyond the immediate perception of the hammer hitting the hand. The "real" hammer can cause "real" damage to your hand that may last after the pain and the hammer are gone. This imagined hammer and the dream hammer do not cause "real" damage. The imagined and dream hammer are similar to the "real" one but they lack the matter aspect.

Can you address the hard problem of idealism of explaining why it is this way?
I can't help but think that this inquiry would be better served by perhaps moving it to another topic thread about analytical idealism, maybe even in the BK related subforum set up with that context in mind, in keeping with Eugene's request that I offer a chance to move them.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Jim Cross
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Jim Cross »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:52 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:33 pm
Eugene I. wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:15 pm
Speaking pragmatically, I will just not intentionally attempt any actions that will cause any perceptions of pain. Whether or not there is a "real hammer" causing these sense perceptions of pain is actually practically irrelevant.
Sounds like "actually practically" you are agreeing with me. Or almost at least.

But, of course, it goes far beyond pain or no pain, beyond the immediate perception of the hammer hitting the hand. The "real" hammer can cause "real" damage to your hand that may last after the pain and the hammer are gone. This imagined hammer and the dream hammer do not cause "real" damage. The imagined and dream hammer are similar to the "real" one but they lack the matter aspect.

Can you address the hard problem of idealism of explaining why it is this way?
I can't help but think that this inquiry would be better served by perhaps moving it to another topic thread about analytical idealism, maybe even in the BK related subforum set up with that context in mind, in keeping with Eugene's request that I offer a chance to move them.
Maybe but Cleric did write this:
It's really very simple. Even a materialist would agree that our thinking brain is part of the World Process. Of course he imagines that this process somehow produces pixels of consciousness which can be at most representations of that very process. But undoubtedly we can make this thinking world process the object of itself. It is a completely arbitrary assumption that what we thus experience is only a representation of the real world process. For what we know, the world process that we experience in thinking is the only process that we ever know. So if this is the world process to which we have access, it's completely arbitrary decision to consider as significant only the mental representations below us and disregard the living time-context, which we can also be conscious of, even though through polar scientific attitude.
So it would seem to me that that Cleric should also explain why thinking (or Thinking) can have a hard aspect to it. Maybe it's all one in the end but why do we treat the hard thinking differently from the soft thinking.
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Jim Cross wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:00 pmSo it would seem to me that that Cleric should also explain why thinking (or Thinking) can have a hard aspect to it. Maybe it's all one in the end but why do we treat the hard thinking differently from the soft thinking.
Well, as challenging as it may be to articulate—as expressed in my first reply to Cleric's topic here—it seems often the case that that is what Cleric is addressing in many of his contributions, especially in his essays, which you've pretty much conceded make no sense to you, which as stated I once felt the same about, rather than being a case of him not addressing it. But of course, I understand that you're only interested in the analytical approach, that BK is also focused within, still confined, hindered and limited, as per my earlier comment, by what I see as the core impediment and conundrum we keep coming up against in this exchange, and many like it, as being similar to the observation that (paraphrasing), we can't resolve problems (misunderstandings) with the kind of thinking that perpetuates them—and so with this cognitive disconnect still in place, as far as I can tell, there's been no progress in bridging it here. So again maybe continue elsewhere to try to resolve it in the context of analytical idealism, the very context that Cleric is trying to supersede.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Eugene I.
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Eugene I. »

Jim Cross wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:33 pm But, of course, it goes far beyond pain or no pain, beyond the immediate perception of the hammer hitting the hand. The "real" hammer can cause "real" damage to your hand that may last after the pain and the hammer are gone. This imagined hammer and the dream hammer do not cause "real" damage. The imagined and dream hammer are similar to the "real" one but they lack the matter aspect.

Can you address the hard problem of idealism of explaining why it is this way?
What you call "real damage" is only a certain change in the patterns of certain sense perceptions in our conscious experience, as opposed to only change in imaginations when we only imagine a hammer or a damaged hand. You will perceive your "hand" through your senses in a different way long time after the "hammer" hits it, but that alone does nothing to prove that the "real hammer" or "real hand" actually exist as material objects. So, it goes to a general question of why we are observing certain patterns of sense perceptions in our conscious experience that "look like" the world of material objects. This is indeed an explanatory gap in idealism, but it does not belong to the category of intractable "hard problems", because there is a lot of plausible hypotheses that we can offer to explain it (as opposed to the "hard problem of consciousness" in materialism where no plausible hypothetic explanations can even in principle exist). I will not go into all of them, but just to mention that BK offers one explanation (DID phenomenon), Steiner/Cleric offer another one (I will let Cleric to elaborate on it), and there are more.
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Cleric K »

Eugene I. wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:16 pm ...
Eugene, I'm in harmony with what you speak of, as far as it concerns the general picture of things. The whole thing is that when this general picture must be connected with concrete realities it basically amounts to: "Anyone can do whatever they want, there's no direction, there's no need to exert effort". In other words, all those talks about evolution, divine realization, divine goals and so on remain entirely poetic expressions that float in the air and have no practical significance. We can only understand why this disconnect manifests if we take a closer look on evolution and Time.

What you describe with completely general strokes, places man as timeless observer/experiencer, where he feels that evolution is simply the gradual change of seasons before the eyes of the spirit. That's why we need not bother with the oceanic current - it takes care of itself. Our job is to experience small turbulent eddies which produce the fractal diversity of existence. This is also why one feels completely satisfied with vague religiosity which doesn't place any special demands on our eddie currents.

The evolution of man has led to a point where we're in position to experience the true nature of Time. The oceanic current is the archetypal flow of Time which we experience microcosmically in Thinking. We're continually transforming the world potential into world memory through the pinhole of our Thinking activity.

If we hear this only abstractly, it may not sound like much but in reality it's a big deal. I can put that into a metaphor.

We don't need to breathe consciously. We can take conscious control but if we don't, breathing happens on its own in a way Nature intended. Now imagine that gradually Nature withdraws and leave us more and more to control breathing ourselves. People are split. Some say "Nature is leaving us on our own. We need to understand and practice deep, slow, rhythmic breathing in order to promote health." Others say "Nonsense. There's no need to intervene. This is the way it is supposed to be. Some breath shallowly and are sick but that's the beauty of life - we're here to experience its full palette. Seeking some healthy way of breathing is utopian, it will only lead to stagnation. We must not go in one direction. Instead we should live on the border between health and disease because this is what makes life interesting."

I guess the metaphor is clear. This may sound as a strange thing to say but in certain sense Nature is weaning us and we're becoming more and more responsible for the rhythmic time-flow of consciousness. We must move our thoughts, feelings and actions along the streams of time with our own spiritual forces. Why? Nature wants us to be free. And to be free it means that we must be creatively responsible for more and more of reality, instead of being forced to flow along predefined currents. This also means that we must understand the ways in which we must conduct our activity because when we take control of it it can make the difference between life and death. While Nature is in control everything is wisely ordered but when we take things into our own hands we have the creative freedom to destroy ourselves. These archetypal processes and are transparent for those who know how to read the script of living Nature. It's the same thing as the child growing into an adult. More and more of the things it received ready-made - food, shelter, care - become his own creative responsibility. This is the same pattern on all levels. Beings awaken in the maternal embrace of Nature and gradually turn their being inside-out such that they become the fully conscious Spirit of Nature for other beings. For example, what we today see as life, most clearly exemplified in the plant-world, is the expression of consciousness which at some point has grown as we grow today but has evolved to such a degree, that it has taken upon itself such degrees of freedom, that these beings are now the forces of life in Nature. The fully conscious spiritual activity of these beings is the maternal womb of life for us.

This is the general way everything evolves. And here's the critical point for humanity today. Certain forces of Nature which have been thus far lovingly carrying us, are gradually pulling away. Without noticing it, more and more forces that support the proper flow of our life, our feelings, our thoughts, are receding and we must more and more take their function through our own forces. This is growing up, this is evolving, this is becoming a free being.

Seen in this way, the quest for perfection is not to stagnate in perfect symmetry. It's the creative endeavor to find those rhythms, those patterns which are compatible with and promote life and consciousness.

I hope I was able to convey this idea sufficiently. Please stop for a moment and think about it. It's not something that will be found in ancient religious texts, nor in modern Darwinian theories. Effectively it means the following: we imagine that the great oceanic current knows its job, it carries us along, we're only to explore the small eddies. And up to a certain stage this is so but these currents form a fractal hierarchy and layer by layer these currents - from the closest to us, towards the grander - are weaning us. And this is the only logical thing to do. The One Consciousness that awakens in each one of us wants to know itself in fullness. It makes no sense to remain eternally maternally carried by other aspects of itself. Instead, the small perspectives must take more and more of the functions of what has been hitherto performed by Nature. Only in this way they can be free, they can become the creative perspectives of Nature.

So what does this mean all in all? That we must make very crucial discernment today. We must realize that more and more of the chaos that we witness today is not because this is what MAL wanted to experience but because more and more forces of Nature have withdrawn and were left to the responsibility of men, even thought they don't know it. This in itself shows how important it is to become fully conscious of the degrees of freedom that have been bestowed on us and seek the wisdom how to employ them in the most life and consciousness promoting way (assuming that we're interested in healthy life and free and expansive consciousness). If we don't recognize the signs of the times, if we can't use our common sense to understand what is going on, we'll be in a position of a child from which very gradually, imperceptibly, the mother's breast is being withdrawn, the shelter taken for granted is withdrawn and so on. The child begins to experience misfortunes and wonders why. It can say "Maybe my Father made me so that I should experience all this". Or it can realize that certain things that it took for granted are no longer so, and it must begin to study, to educate itself, to develop skills, such that it can find the ways to do what external forces have hitherto done for it, and even more.
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Eugene I. »

Cleric K wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:26 pm Seen in this way, the quest for perfection is not to stagnate in perfect symmetry. It's the creative endeavor to find those rhythms, those patterns which are compatible with and promote life and consciousness.

I hope I was able to convey this idea sufficiently. Please stop for a moment and think about it. It's not something that will be found in ancient religious texts, nor in modern Darwinian theories. Effectively it means the following: we imagine that the great oceanic current knows its job, it carries us along, we're only to explore the small eddies. And up to a certain stage this is so but these currents form a fractal hierarchy and layer by layer these currents - from the closest to us, towards the grander - are weaning us. And this is the only logical thing to do. The One Consciousness that awakens in each one of us wants to know itself in fullness. It makes no sense to remain eternally maternally carried by other aspects of itself. Instead, the small perspectives must take more and more of the functions of what has been hitherto performed by Nature. Only in this way they can be free, they can become the creative perspectives of Nature.

So what does this mean all in all? That we must make very crucial discernment today. We must realize that more and more of the chaos that we witness today is not because this is what MAL wanted to experience but because more and more forces of Nature have withdrawn and were left to the responsibility of men, even thought they don't know it. This in itself shows how important it is to become fully conscious of the degrees of freedom that have been bestowed on us and seek the wisdom how to employ them in the most life and consciousness promoting way (assuming that we're interested in healthy life and free and expansive consciousness). If we don't recognize the signs of the times, if we can't use our common sense to understand what is going on, we'll be in a position of a child from which very gradually, imperceptibly, the mother's breast is being withdrawn, the shelter taken for granted is withdrawn and so on. The child begins to experience misfortunes and wonders why. It can say "Maybe my Father made me so that I should experience all this". Or it can realize that certain things that it took for granted are no longer so, and it must begin to study, to educate itself, to develop skills, such that it can find the ways to do what external forces have hitherto done for it, and even more.
Well, looks like we are both converging to the same picture. In my terms we humans intuitively hear the Divine "call" to evolve, to stive for more harmony, more and deeper knowledge, and this is also how the Divine actualizes itself and the "Kingdom of Heaven" actualizes on Earth through us humans. But that is not the only call we have, there are many more calls from the Divine and paths within the overall evolutionary flow that are no less valuable and important. So, it's not a question of "this-or-that", there is no contradiction here, we are called to accomplish it in both ways - to participate in the global evolutionary curvature movement with our efforts, and at the same time accomplish our calls and paths along other dimensions that also contribute to the overall flow, but are still valuable based on their own merits. On other words, the evolution of consciousness is not reducible to just a one-dimensional flow, it is very multi-dimensional, even though it does include an evolution in the dimension of attaining higher and more encompassing knowledge and gradually expanding/dissolving the "imaginary" boundary of the veil. So, the view of the evolutionary path that you are presenting is correct if taken together with a variety of other dimensions and paths of the development, but it would be incomplete and too reductionist/limited if it is claimed that all development is only reduced/limited to such path.
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:27 am
AshvinP wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:31 am
Cleric K wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:12 pm

I tried to point out to Eugene how this whole 'veil' philosophy is abused. On one hand we postulate a veil which separates us from reality. But at the same time we develop a belief system about what this beyond reality is like and how based on this we can guide our life here on our side of the veil. Paradoxically, it's impossible to know if any of our beliefs about the beyond are correct because our own belief precludes any possibility for direct knowledge of the beyond.
Cleric,

Thank you for more inspiring posts as usual. This "veil" abuse is really at the heart of so many of these misunderstandings, prejudices, projections, etc. It is really switched on and off without any explanation for why. And it actually ties in very well with a legal concept I come across a lot in my practice, so I am writing a short essay to address it. I hope it usefully adds to what you have already wrote here.
So with all this discussion of a so-called 'veil' that somehow drops like a curtain between the transcorporeal soul-being that one is in essence, and its bodily expression donned like a costume upon stepping within the corporeal construct, an inquiry arises. What is to be made of such a veil, when upon occasion that corporeal expression/costume can be viewed as an objectified percept from a non-local out-of-body, transcorporeal state, by none other than the soul-being that one is in essence, whereupon any such veil vanishes, as if some imagining never actually there in the first place?

You can find my short essay on "Piercing the Corporeal Veil" here - viewtopic.php?t=703
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
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Re: The Central Topic

Post by Jim Cross »

Eugene I. wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:05 pm
Jim Cross wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:33 pm But, of course, it goes far beyond pain or no pain, beyond the immediate perception of the hammer hitting the hand. The "real" hammer can cause "real" damage to your hand that may last after the pain and the hammer are gone. This imagined hammer and the dream hammer do not cause "real" damage. The imagined and dream hammer are similar to the "real" one but they lack the matter aspect.

Can you address the hard problem of idealism of explaining why it is this way?
What you call "real damage" is only a certain change in the patterns of certain sense perceptions in our conscious experience, as opposed to only change in imaginations when we only imagine a hammer or a damaged hand. You will perceive your "hand" through your senses in a different way long time after the "hammer" hits it, but that alone does nothing to prove that the "real hammer" or "real hand" actually exist as material objects. So, it goes to a general question of why we are observing certain patterns of sense perceptions in our conscious experience that "look like" the world of material objects. This is indeed an explanatory gap in idealism, but it does not belong to the category of intractable "hard problems", because there is a lot of plausible hypotheses that we can offer to explain it (as opposed to the "hard problem of consciousness" in materialism where no plausible hypothetic explanations can even in principle exist). I will not go into all of them, but just to mention that BK offers one explanation (DID phenomenon), Steiner/Cleric offer another one (I will let Cleric to elaborate on it), and there are more.
You seem to be suggesting that we can't derive mind from matter but it is entirely possible to derive matter from mind. I'd love to know how.
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