Hierarchies of Dissociation

[Martin_]

I don't think Analytical Idealism is saying this. I think it's only saying that it doesn't know, doesn't have a suggestion on how to know, and doesn't need to know, in order to argue its central thesis. Maybe one can say that it's Agnostic to the question?

How is Ben, speaking on behalf of analytical idealism, not suggesting that we are innately precluded by nature from accessing these realms, which is the only way we can know them, when he writes: "The problem arises partly at our own level of dissociation, because evolution has not given us, as metabolising creatures in a planetary environment, access to anywhere other than the layer of reality we need to survive. If there are nonbiological realms, we cannot reliably visit them, catalogue them, describe their function or freely interact with them. "

Then we get the old claim that such 'extraordinary', read 'unnatural', explorations/expressions require extraordinary evidence to verify them, while asserting that we have not been given, and indeed cannot have, access to those realms, which renders any evidence moot—speaking once again to the catch 22 dilemma of any child seer, who when they naturally express, nurture and develop such innate proclivities and abilities, it is discouraged, deterred, shut down/put down, and even shunned, while if they don't express, nurture and develop them, they atrophy and become dormant. Under those conditions, it's hardly surprising that such a child eventually resorts to agnosticism, if not outright cynicism.

Great points, Dana. We can also observe how there is an entirely unwarranted assumption that our "planetary environment" only includes what we can physically perceive as flattened pictures around us. Modern science has already established very concrete links between invisble and extra-terrestrial forces and our own biological and ecological processes here on Earth. So now analytic idealism must positively deny the unambiguous results of modern science, as opposed to secular-materialist interpretations of those results, to maintain its abstract "instinctive MAL/alter" hypothesis. This is not remaining silent, but proactively burying our heads in the sand.

Exactly how does this unwarranted assumption manifest in the text Ben suggested?

[AshvinP]

Great points, Dana. We can also observe how there is an entirely unwarranted assumption that our "planetary environment" only includes what we can physically perceive as flattened pictures around us. Modern science has already established very concrete links between invisble and extra-terrestrial forces and our own biological and ecological processes here on Earth. So now analytic idealism must positively deny the unambiguous results of modern science, as opposed to secular-materialist interpretations of those results, to maintain its abstract "instinctive MAL/alter" hypothesis. This is not remaining silent, but proactively burying our heads in the sand.

Exactly how does this unwarranted assumption manifest in the text Ben suggested?

"However, [the layers of reality between personal mind and MAL] do not seem to be necessary to account for reality."

It is implicit here that everything called "nonbiological" exists in these layers, and the "planetary environment" which is "biological" and accounts for our evolution is at the layer of "personal mind". For one thing, we can ask the simple question - how is it conceivable that many layers of reality exist which have absolutely no effect on our evolution? It isn't conceivable under anything except hard metaphysical dualism or pluralism. Even then the dualist would need to posit a permeable boundary if they wanted to be at all consistent with modern science, which shows clearly that the "nonbiological" layers of the supersensible Cosmos have had enormous influence on our evolution. For ex., the "dark mattter/energy" which makes up most of the Cosmos and is responsible for its perfectly balanced expansion. That expansion is really a physical symbol for Cosmic evolution itself (or perhaps involution), and the "dark energy/matter" is a symbol for the forces which exceed our current cognitive capacity to perceive.

[Martin_]

Great points, Dana. We can also observe how there is an entirely unwarranted assumption that our "planetary environment" only includes what we can physically perceive as flattened pictures around us. Modern science has already established very concrete links between invisble and extra-terrestrial forces and our own biological and ecological processes here on Earth. So now analytic idealism must positively deny the unambiguous results of modern science, as opposed to secular-materialist interpretations of those results, to maintain its abstract "instinctive MAL/alter" hypothesis. This is not remaining silent, but proactively burying our heads in the sand.

Exactly how does this unwarranted assumption manifest in the text Ben suggested?

"However, [the layers of reality between personal mind and MAL] do not seem to be necessary to account for reality."

This does not signal an assumption that the layers do not exist. It only states that they do not seem necessary.

[AshvinP]

Exactly how does this unwarranted assumption manifest in the text Ben suggested?

"However, [the layers of reality between personal mind and MAL] do not seem to be necessary to account for reality."

This does not signal an assumption that the layers do not exist. It only states that they do not seem necessary.

Yes, I know... and I am saying there is no reason for this arbitrary dualist assumption which also happens to defy all modern scientific research. Can you please explain to me how there could exist many layers of beings (or whatever) between the physical (sense-perceptible) world around us and MAL, but with those existing layers having absolutely no influence on the physical world i.e. "planetary environment" around us?

[Martin_]

"However, [the layers of reality between personal mind and MAL] do not seem to be necessary to account for reality."

This does not signal an assumption that the layers do not exist. It only states that they do not seem necessary.

Yes, I know... and I am saying there is no reason for this arbitrary dualist assumption which also happens to defy all modern scientific research. Can you please explain to me how there could exist many layers of beings (or whatever) between the physical (sense-perceptible) world around us and MAL, but with those existing layers having absolutely no influence on the physical world i.e. "planetary environment" around us?

so it's dualist to not have an opinion now? that's new.

[Soul_of_Shu]

This does not signal an assumption that the layers do not exist. It only states that they do not seem necessary.

Yes, I know... and I am saying there is no reason for this arbitrary dualist assumption which also happens to defy all modern scientific research. Can you please explain to me how there could exist many layers of beings (or whatever) between the physical (sense-perceptible) world around us and MAL, but with those existing layers having absolutely no influence on the physical world i.e. "planetary environment" around us?

so it's dualist to not have an opinion now? that's new.

It does seem somehow dualistic, if allowing that there could be transcorporeal beings, but even if they do exist, they must of necessity be segregated and ex-communicated from our corporeal expressions, with no need to allow that they in any way reliably inform, influence, commune, co-create with our corporeal expressions—as per Ben's premise: "Hierarchies of dissociation are not ruled out by Analytic idealism. However, they do not seem to be necessary to account for reality."

[Ben Iscatus]

It does seem somehow dualistic, if allowing that there could be transcorporeal beings, but even if they do exist, they must of necessity be segregated and ex-communicated from our corporeal expressions

Yes, but that's what dissociation does - it segregates. There are all kinds of property dualisms - like thoughts and emotions which interact, which Analytic Idealism suggests is trivially true. Dissociative layers of reality would be property dualism (it's all still mental - so no substance difference). I don't think Analytic Idealism would ever go so far as to say transcorporeal beings are excommunicated from us - just that they're not accessible within the boundaries of our dissociation.

[Soul_of_Shu]

It does seem somehow dualistic, if allowing that there could be transcorporeal beings, but even if they do exist, they must of necessity be segregated and ex-communicated from our corporeal expressions

Yes, but that's what dissociation does - it segregates. There are all kinds of property dualisms - like thoughts and emotions which interact, which Analytic Idealism suggests is trivially true. Dissociative layers of reality would be property dualism (it's all still mental - so no substance difference). I don't think Analytic Idealism would ever go so far as to say transcorporeal beings are excommunicated from us - just that they're not accessible within the boundaries of our dissociation.

Yes, granted it's not a substance dualism, whereby there are two distinct ontological categories, i.e. mind and matter. Still you seem to be saying that in order for any such beings to inform, influence, commune and co-create with our corporeal expressions, those boundaries of dissociation must be dissolved. If so, is that what happens when for example a 'daemon' informs, influences, co-creates the ideation and writing of much of BK's early body of work, clearly involving his corporeal form, as per his own claim?

[Ben Iscatus]

Yes, granted it's not a substance dualism, whereby there are two distinct ontological categories, i.e. mind and matter. Still you seem to be saying that in order for any such beings to inform, influence, commune, co-create with our corporeal expressions, those boundaries of dissociation must be dissolved. If so, is that what happens when for example a 'daemon' informs, influences, co-creates the ideation and writing of much of BK's early body of work, clearly involving his corporeal form, as per his own claim?

Good point. It's not that the boundary dissolves - dissociation is not perfect, and can be more "porous and permeable" in some people than others, and in ourselves, depending on our state of mind.

The daemon represents archetypal expressions of Mind which happen to resonate with us, based on our unique perspective. Whether those archetypes derive from what Jung called the Collective Unconscious or whether they derive from what Jung called the Personal Unconscious, I'm not certain, but since resisting the daemon is like a rowboat trying to resist an Oceanic storm, I suspect it's the former.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Yes, granted it's not a substance dualism, whereby there are two distinct ontological categories, i.e. mind and matter. Still you seem to be saying that in order for any such beings to inform, influence, commune, co-create with our corporeal expressions, those boundaries of dissociation must be dissolved. If so, is that what happens when for example a 'daemon' informs, influences, co-creates the ideation and writing of much of BK's early body of work, clearly involving his corporeal form, as per his own claim?

Good point. It's not that the boundary dissolves - dissociation is not perfect, and can be more "porous and permeable" in some people than others, and in ourselves, depending on our state of mind.

The daemon represents archetypal expressions of Mind which happen to resonate with us, based on our unique perspective. Whether those archetypes derive from what Jung called the Collective Unconscious or whether they derive from what Jung called the Personal Unconscious, I haven't seen or heard.

Well, I suppose there's some debate to be had about whether or not archetypal expressions constitute transcorporeal beings. Nonetheless, such cross-border traffic surely isn't only unilateral/one-way. And what I'm getting at, as I've gleaned from Cleric, is that if one's innate, natural proclivity and ability to open and cross the veil, so to speak, is denied, deterred, retarded, not nurtured, not taught, not learned from adepts, and thus not efficaciously developed from very early on, left to atrophy and lay dormant, it should come as no surprise that when at some point one inexplicably, unexpectedly, without informed preparation, bemusedly stumbles into encounters with transcorporeal realms and beings, that upon return it comes across to others as ambiguous and unreliable. Not sure I've much more to add than that.