Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

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Graham is my favorite atheist! He's a very sweet person who has been very patient with my questions over the years. I believe he has the exact personality that Bernardo feels safe with so I think this will be a great conversation. Fingers crossed.

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Wow, at 21:04 the moderator proved he was an intellectual giant.

I see, just a bit after this point, Bernardo both making very important points and on the verge of being overcome by his antipathy.

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At 42:20 my heart just about broke. I finally saw clearly what is at stake for Bernardo.

And what an utterly fascinating conversation. People that haven't encountered Graham may think that his long line of questioning was merely an attempt to 'trap' Bernardo, but I hope that despite the confusion between their positions people can see that Graham was really asking questions to get fair bearings. Bernardo clearly grasped that in that particular moment.

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When speaking to very smart people who haven't yet grasped what Bernardo means by matter being the extrinsic picture of a subjective experience, I think it is not a great idea to use the metaphor (a metaphor by Bernardo from Bernardo's perspective) of a photon hitting the eye as necessary for seeing. Around 44:14.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Wow, at 21:04 the moderator proved he was an intellectual giant.

I see, just a bit after this point, Bernardo both making very important points and on the verge of being overcome by his antipathy.

Thanks for the psychoanalyst's 2 cents worth yet again. I didn't watch it all, since as expected I wasn't finding much beyond what BK has said myriad times before. But I did hang in long enough to see how any urge toward antipathy was quickly set aside in favour of a genuine desire to be mutually heard and understood, prompting BK to comment, with an element of surprise, that the conversation was much more amiable than he'd anticipated, with no need of any intervention on Nathan's part. Hopefully, it offered some value to others.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Btw, this video was also posted in the new BK subforum, but since FB has reposted it here, and already started the commentary, I'm going to lock the other one, as I'd rather not have 2 discussions going on about the same topic. However, I can move it to the new forum if need be.

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What a beautiful moment when Bernardo said that. You can call it psychoanalysis but I call it describing something beautiful. I can't tell if you are just too triggered at this point to interpret me. I know Lou probably can see what is so sweet in Bernardo suddenly stating his surprise. But it isn't my responsibility to make sure everyone (especially those with some degree of antipathy towards me) understands what I find touching, sweet or moving.

This interview has been all of those things for me. And, as I've already said, the content itself is so great. Graham so quickly wad able to get at many essential boundaries even without having yet grocked Bernardo's core points. And Bernardo clearly felt heard in a way we rarely see when he is dealing with someone who rejects his ontology.

I'm sorry to any of you who feel my comments have been divisive. I can only say that wasn't my intention and there are (believe it or not) other ways to take them. Lou, help me put here. If you watch this conversation, I'd love to see how you take the sweet dynamics I'm seeing. I know that for you 'sweet' can include small moments of turmoil.

This is my favorite Bernardo conversation in some time. I hope they speak a few more times at least, especially as Graham gets a better handle on Bernardo's core nodel.

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I personally can sympathize with Bernardo's frustration over how Graham spoke about qualia, but I still remember when I shared Graham's view so I don't find it quite so perplexing. The hard part for me is grasping what specific communication can really shift that point of view. I think it goes beyond logical discourse.

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Above, Soul said this was just like most of the others conversations he's seen with Barnardo. I can respect that and I really think I know what he means. Obviously I found this to have some very interesting differences. I'll wait to see if others enjoyed this for new reasons before I go on.

[Ben Iscatus]

I'm utterly amazed that you found this inspiring, FB. Were we watching the same podcast? How differently we alters can view the world! What different perspectives we have! There was BK, all wound up... and opposite him was a laid back, half-interested individual...I reckon Graham Oppy had been replaced by a low grade philosophical zombie - not even programmed to answer the question about who would win the ashes (real Australians are forced to answer this one way only). He couldn't grasp that identity theory was just a linguistic device for promissory materialism (or if he could, he couldn't say why it's not). In fact, Oppy didn't attempt to justify any of his very few thoughts.

There was a hopeful statement for Cleric and Ashvin, though. After saying that conceptual reasoning is not enough - that intuition, empathy (emotional intelligence) and imagination are important, right at the end, BK said that "Nature is a book to be read." There!